During the Liberation war of Bangladesh in 1971 most of the people of the nation supported the fight for independence from Pakistan except for a few groups being the fifth column. Jamaat-e-Islami is the oldest religious party in Pakistan and its Bangladesh chapter collaborated with the Pakistan army to unsuccessfully prevent the independence of Bangladesh in 1971. Besides providing information of the pro-independence forces to the Pakistani army Jamaat also created many militia organizations such as Razakar, Al badr, Al shams in order to capture and eventually kill freedom fighters of Bangladesh. A large section of the intellectual community of Bangladesh was murdered by Al Badr and Al Shams when they saw the defeat was coming. Jamaat was subsequently banned, then restored in 1978 as the progressive political parties in Bangladesh in power allowed them space and made them qualition partners eventually.
Recently Bangladeshis were outraged by the Jamaat-e-Islam’s leader Ali Ahsan Muhammad Mujahid’s statement that “Jamaat did not work against the Liberation War in 1971 and there are no war criminals in the country” and former Islami Bank chairman and Jamaat-e-Islami think-tank Shah abdul Hannan's remark that the liberation war was only a “civil war”. Drishtipat Blog has summarized lots of denials, response, analysis, politics and fact files on this issue and a heated discussion took place in the comments section.
E-Bangladesh thinks this is an attempt to rewrite history and comments:
this contradicts with the Jamaat leaders statement during the liberation war in 1971, in which they sided with Pakistan and aided Pakistani army to kill and rape Bangladeshis which resulted in one of the worst genocides of the world.
Shadakalo did not try to hide emotions:
I want to see these snakes tried for war crimes before they die of natural causes.
Tacit questions the intentions of Jamaat and comments:
“With their announcement, Jamaat has in effect heralded politicking back into Bangladesh’s mainstream discourse.”
Lal Dorza reports that Jamaat leaders are vowing that no case has been brought [bn] against the alleged war criminals so why should people call them criminals. In 1974 a general amnesty was declared for some of the war criminals.
However Eskimo reminds [bn] that the amnesty was not a blanket one but limited to only those persons who did not have specific charges against them. The 3rd world view quotes Dr. Hasan, convenor of War Crimes Fact Finding Committee, a group investigating war crimes by Pakistani army and their local collaborators in 1971, who calls Muzahid's statement a blatant lie:
“We have strong evidence and documents against the people who were involved in war crimes during the Liberation War and what is needed now to bring the culprits to justice is an initiative.”
In 1994, a national people's inquiry commission conducted a trial on eight war criminals of Bangladesh (including Ali Ahsan Muhammad Mujahid) and presented a report in 1995 which can be found here. The report concludes:
The Inquiry Commission after reviewing the offences of the accused and related laws came to a conclusion that these criminals can be tried under the International Crime (Tribunal) Act 1973. To make the sovereignty of Bangladesh safe and sound, to ensure peace, human rights and dignity these criminals (killers, collaborators and war criminals) must be brought to the justice. The commission strongly recommends trial of these offences.
However for unknown reasons the succeeding governments of Bangladesh failed to take any actions against them. Leading commentators also suggest that it is high time to take actions against the war criminals. Because of lack of solid evidence after 36 years it would be appropriate to implement other measures like establishing a truth commission to deal with these crimes.
Bloggers like Eskimo are demanding [bn] that Jamaat should not have the right to be active in politics in Bangladesh. They are pointing out that its main agenda is to form a religious state which is in contradiction to the current state of democracy, judicary, constitution and social structure of the country. Some bloggers even put together an website called “Ban Jamaat-e-Islami” to propagate their protests.
Mash posts some video footages and newspaper articles on the 1971 genocide of Bangladesh. ShadaKalo posts some images of the genocide the Pakistani army and their collaborators committed against the Bangladeshis in 1971 and reiterates the words:
I will not forget. I will not let you forget.
I am a Bangladeshi and strongly believes that the whole liberation war was a mistake. It was the fruit of the gross incompetence of our the then leards, especially penguin-coat Mujib, and their lack of political maturity.
Thanks to their deplorably leadership quality - we, Bangladeshis, will never be able to rule Pakistan.
I am a Bangladeshi and I believe that joining a two-faced snake like Jinnah in 1947 was a mistake. Thanks to the incompetence of our leaders back then, esp. Fazlul Huq and Suhrawardy, we were never able to rule all of East British India.
Now I don’t necessarily believe the above. But I find it funny that a supposed “Bangladeshi” sees it fit to blame Mujib and those who fought for us and led us, rather than blaming those who oppressed us. Complete partisanship. Ashamed to call myself Bangladeshi at the moment.
I see words, big words. huge sentences, monstrous proposals and other assorted crafts. That is fine and dandy, but I think we are forgetting a tinsy-winsy point of note.
This is Bangladesh where 58~65% people can write their names..and about 40% of them writes it backwards . How can we expect to cause a mass rift among folks like these with left-wing, liberal propaganda efforts like distributing flyers or making complementary posters? Did anyone find out what happened to the so called “Nilima Andolon” protesting the slaying of the former Finance Minister? You know, those scenes where a bunch of socio-political elites with their snobbish “I have a better understanding of Goethe than you do” attitude would stand around the corners of the street wearing only blue clothing and holding protest signs. Nobody gave a flying fudge about them.
What we need is “Viral Media Outbreak” and Media Saboteuring work against a common evil. In doing so, we can’t afford to alienate the religiously impulsed majority of the country. In previous years, most of these “Anti YOU KNOW WHO” efforts were propelled by publicly declared atheists like Kabir Chowdhury, which ironically I must rephrase, might’ve cause some negative effects. So in order to bring about moderate views in our society that is free of any influences from “YOU KNOW WHO…AND YOU KNOW WHAT”, we must progress tactically…defeating “YOU KNOW WHOM” in their own game of cat and genetically altered mouse.
The defence rests
Ref: “YOU KNOW WHO” doesn’t refer to the legendary antagonist of the world of Harry potter. Mind that.
Oh, another thing…I just can’t resist saying a few words to the first commenter.. here goes
“Thanks to their deplorably leadership quality - we, Bangladeshis, will never be able to rule Pakistan.”
Judging by the recent events in Pak-E-Stain, I would thank one other person “GOD” :) Although, us Bangladeshis are pretty self righteous bastards ourselves, but we can’t possibly match the level of Entropy displayed by Postuns and Panjabis. Let me quote a few lines from the Star Wars chronicles that I see would best fit the situation:
” Padmé: [to Bail Organa] So this is how liberty dies… with thunderous applause. ”
Capische?
“..but we can’t possibly match the level of Entropy displayed by Postuns and Panjabis” - You think so? Perhaps a cup of coffee would refresh our senses :)
“Ashamed to call myself Bangladeshi at the moment.” - Welcome aboard :)
Creation of Bangladesh was inevitable - had it not happened
in 1971 then eventually it would. India helped in disintegrating Pakistan to serve their own interest - it was not because of it’s GREATNESS - we felt it right after the independence. Infact, had Mujib been not there India would have annexed us just like it did to Sikkim. We need to be aware that Rajkars are war criminals and they must be
prosecuted. But at the same time we need to be very careful
not to weaken our nationalist ideology - we are Bangladeshi( not just Bangalee) and fought against Pakistan and do the same against India if it tries to meddle in our national intertest.
There is need for us to end the pro and anti liberation divisive politics (as it is in best interest of RAW of India to keep it alive and utilize it against us to deter our economic emancipation). Rajakar issue must be resolve d once and for all by taking proper legal actions. Pakistan is 1500 miles away and we are done with them. Now we need to move on and concentrate on the immediate threat of Indian ‘failed state’ propaganda. The more we become engaged in divisive politics the easier it would be for India to weaken us. So, Let’s not let that happen.
I am amazed to see that how this ignorant secular liberals like Rezwans twist the facts to serve their own purpose. First of all, Shah Hannan is NOT a Jamaat Leader. so calling him a Jamaat leader is a total lie and an indication of this blogger’s ignorance. Secondly Shah Hannan admitted that it was a liberation struggle for the Bangalis but then he also said many in the world consider this as a civil war between political forces. You can read the full transcript or watch the video on youtube to know what he REALLY said on that interview.
You are putting words into shah abdul hannan’s mouth. This really makes your cause look a bit naff and the chain of narration faulty. He was adamant about not speaking as a representative of JIB. He is not an official leader of said organisation, and he mentioned that it was both a liberation and a civil war. Its plain for all to see on youtube.
I suggest that a “TRUTH and RECONCILIATION COMMISSION” on the same lines as the South African ONE be SET UP. Both the Bangla Desh and the Pakistan Governments should honestly participate and fully cooperate. this will go a long way in clarifying FACT from FICTION. Any one should be given the right to press charges on the basis of the Evidence they have or may collect or obtain.
@crypticfate:
Thanks for correcting me he is not a leader in Jamaat register but he is a Jamaat apologist and hold the same ideals of Jamaat. I am not twisting any fact but only echoing what was commented by a leading newspaper of Bangladesh.
He REALLY said this:
I guess who are soliciting Mr. Hannan should read this first.
he is not an apologist. now i realise that its tempting to jump on top of secondhand nazi labels and label people who arent swallowing with demonic slurs. but it reflects upon yourselves more than the people you label genocide deniers, who come from not to dissimilar historical experiences from you.
Many people care for and participate in the islamic ’scene’ in bangladesh. there is a diversity of viewpoints and they are always in flux. The problem with the AL cult way of thinking is that anyone who has an islamic character to their thought and collective works becomes a ‘zamati’. Its quaint, but innacurate.
As a country we are blessed with shah abdul hannan, for you and all the others playing this issue to slur him in your blamestorm is predictable but wrong. He is good hearted enough to walk into the bear trap and hope to create understanding. You need people like that in bangladesh people who are stable and constructive and actually love people. Not the people who play emotional games and use the people.
The biggest thing that i learnt from the interview was that shahriar kabir is a nonce and has an ideological axe to grind that muddies the waters, turning it into national ontology rather than the crime/court investigation that it should be.
Back up there just a minute, Fudgestar:
Rezwan bhai has QUOTES AND A VIDEO to back up his claim that this man is denying our GENOCIDE because the UN hasn’t called it one! (Ironic that fudgestar and other Islamists who are normally so critical of the UN and Western values doesn’t jump on that)
He is NOT saying the following: this man is Jamaat, ergo he is a war criminal. If there’s one person in the blogosphere who doesn’t do that or thinks that everyone participating in the Islamic “scene” is a war criminal or a criminal, it’s Rezwan bhai. He’s never done that on his own blog. He’s not doing it now.
If Shah Hannan might be an asset to “the nation”, but then I have to ask what nation exactly you are referring to. Whatever other skills he might possess, he’s NOT a nationalist, he’s not a patriot and he’s not a Bangladeshi.
Lastly, what exactly is this “islamic ’scene’”? Jaantam shobai Mussalman amra, abar extra “scene” asey naki? Please educate us fudgestar shaheb.
Who is that Fugstar? Is he the son of any Razakar or Al-Bodor? It seems from his comments that he should have many experiencs of living with war criminal. He must have.
Rezwan: One thing that’s totally missing from the discussion, sadly, is Jamaat’s present engagement with the international “Jihad” movement. It’s high time we concentrate on this, in blogs and other forums.
Jamaat, as an international “Islamist mafia,” remains an active proponent of Wahabi terror campaigns around the world financed by Saudi money through Rabita-e-Alam al-Islam [World Muslim League] and networked with groups like WAMY or RSO. Jamaat’s war against Bangladesh did not end, literally/practically speaking, in 1971. To date they continue: run jihadist training camps for ICS, RSO and WAMY all over the country, sponsor and engineer sectarian or communal riots/campaigns. Minimum examples.
Zeeshan aka Fugstar: It’s really sad to see you changing so much as you change your nicks, talk “liberal Islam” in the morning, advocate for obscurantist mullahs in the evening. Tsk… tsk..
Shah Abdul Hannan is not a Jamaati?! No one is asking for his JeI membership card my friend. Hannan, last time I checked, is on the board of Islami Bank Ltd, JeI’s prime business venture in Bangladesh. I agree with you: he is not a JeI apologist, he is a JeI think-tank.
My objection is to the statment that the accused said ‘the liberation war was only a civil war’, something which clearly is not in the spirit let alone the words that left the accused lips.
From the video interview its clear to me he is not denying death and mayhem. Your secular takfir and judgement of his patriotism and bangladeshiness, is again your own responsibility as are your assumptions of what an islamist is.
Islamic scene to me is participation in and commitment to the nurturing of islamic ritual, educational, character developmental, financial, intellectual and social facilities. As a scene/field/arena it shares all of the flaws of the general society, but its one which i accord essential value to.
Fugstar, you go around every blog you can find denying the Bangladesh genocide. However, the history disagrees with you. Scholars disagree with you. Eyewitnesses disagree with you. Newspaper accounts disagree with you. Historical documents disagree with you.
So it does not surprise me that you don’t think Hannan is a genocide denier. Don’t embarrass yourself by trying to tarnish Rezwan’s reputation by suggesting he is “playing this issue”. He has a well-deserved reputation as one of the finest bloggers representing Bangladesh. History and the facts are clear and Rezwan’s post is on very firm footing.
There have been genocide deniers before you, there will be genocide deniers after you. I use the label consciously and deliberately. Your tactics are not new and are no different than others who have gone before you. Keep on denying, fewer and fewer people will listen to your well-worn talking points.
What took place is 1971 is not a genocide or at least you will NOT find an Internationally recognized reliable source to support that idea. However, if you do find something, I would love to enlighten myself as a revisionist.
By repeatedly calling it a genocide, you and others like you are spreading disinformation and diluting a historical event that is very important for our nation.
It’s interesting how since the Ali Ahsan Muhammad Mujahid statement, the genocide revisionists of Bangladesh are out in force. These ghouls seem to be have become even more brazen since the Jamaat developed a gloves-off attitude to it’s own history. This could be due to the threat of forcinig political parties renounce the use of politicised religion.
The revisionists are demonstrating a masterclass in dissimulation. This would explain the desperate attempts to bring in the common-as-muck partisan line t
It is true that by some commentaries and interpretation, one can claim that a civil war took place in 1971. But it would be a very imbalanced civil war that elides from the actual crime that took place - the systematic killing and rape of hundreds of thousands of men and women.
You could use the same kind of obfuscation, if you were in the genocide denial business, and argue that the following conflicts were “civil wars” too:
The Huutis and the Tutsis in Rwanda
The Serbs and Bosnians in former Yugoslavia
But you know that we know that they were clear examples of genocide, pure and simple. These are weasel words from morally bankrupt partisan hacks who, judging from their desperate attempts to cover up documented history, realise that they are up to their necks in their own bullshit.
Are you blind man? It says there that he said it wasn’t a genocide because the UN hasn’t accorded it that status. You’re right that is “not denying death and mayhem”.
It is denying the scope and magnitude of the death and mayhem against Bengali CIVILIANS perpetrated in a SYSTEMATIC fashion by MEN IN UNIFORM backed up by the powers of a STATE. Those are the characteristics of a genocide.
By contrast the actions of the Mukti Bahini against non-Bengali populations was sporadic, unsystematic, hit and run affairs. The Mukti Bahini was further a non-uniformed force, with nowhere near the firepower of the Pakistani Army. Whereas the Pakistani state backed by the American superpower was funding that Army, the Mukti Bahini was funded by scraps from its own resources, from donations from neighbours and from poaching off the enemy.
What your hero Hannan Shah and you yourself on some other blogs have done is tried to create an equivalence between them by calling it a “civil war” and ONLY THAT. I don’t mind people calling it a “civil war”. Of course it was a civil war.
BUT here’s where I differ with a full-blown apologist like yourself. It was an ASSYMMETRICAL war. And as such the two sides suffered assymmetrically. What the Mukti Bahini did was at best guerrilla operations, hit and run. What the Pakistani Army did was genocide.
I’m tired of arguing with someone this blind. I’m sorry, other people will have to carry on from here.
Ad hominem arguments - Need I say more?
——————————————
sharika Wrote:
Who is that Fugstar? Is he the son of any Razakar or Al-Bodor? It seems from his comments that he should have many experiencs of living with war criminal. He must have.
Zeeshan aka Fugstar: It’s really sad to see you changing so much as you change your nicks, talk “liberal Islam” in the morning, advocate for obscurantist mullahs in the evening. Tsk… tsk..
Tasneem,
I know Zeeshan, he is a personal friend. And he is certainly not fugstar. Fugstar would never be seen dead advocating for liberal Islam. He has often commented on my blog disagreeing with Hizbut Tahrir, but apologising for their supremacist ideology. Please retract your identifitcation of Zeesahn with the weasel huckster, fugtar.
please post my first comment but edit the “bullshit” line out if you must.
Sid: Sorry for the confusion. I also know Z personally, through email correspondence. In fact, I was sad and awed when I got more than one confirmations on this Nick = Name connection. Since, you are sure about this, I am retracting, with apologies.
[Note to moderator: Not sure if an earlier comment was eaten by the spam filter, so reposting. You can delete this one if that's not the case.]
Sid: I myself was sad and shocked when I got more than one confirmation on this. Since you are sure about this, I am retracting, with apologies.
Where do you find this kind of information? There is no source, no basis, other than some uncultivated thoughts of a delusional mind. Do you even know Wahabi ideology or history?
——————————————
Tasneem Khalil Wrote:
Jamaat, as an international “Islamist mafia,” remains an active proponent of Wahabi terror campaigns around the world financed by Saudi money through Rabita-e-Alam al-Islam [World Muslim League] and networked with groups like WAMY or RSO.
Fugstar, you go around to different blogs denying the Bangladesh genocide. So, it doesnt surprise me to see you here doing the same.
Icarsnet at #17 said:
“What took place is 1971 is not a genocide or at least you will NOT find an Internationally recognized reliable source to support that idea. However, if you do find something, I would love to enlighten myself as a revisionist.
By repeatedly calling it a genocide, you and others like you are spreading disinformation and diluting a historical event that is very important for our nation.”
Icarsnet, you are extremely ill informed. The Bangladesh Genocide is well recognized by international scholars as one of the major genocides of the 20th century.
For starters, the authoratative scholarly tome on genocide, the “Encyclopedia of Genocide”, edited by Israel Charny, classifies the Bangladesh Genocide as genocide. Isreal Charny is perhaps the world’s foremost expert on genocide.
“Century of Genocide: Critical Essays and Eyewitness Accounts”, another authoritative scholarly work, has a chapter on the Bangladesh Genocide.
“The History and Sociology of Genocide: Analyses and Case Studies”, one of the most cited books on genocide, has a chapter on the Bangladesh Genocide.
The three texts I have quoted above are required reading for anyone who seriously studies genocides. I hope now you are enlightened.
Finally, so there is no doubt, let me quote from the chapter on the Bangladesh Genocide from the “Encyclopedia of Genocide”:
Bangladesh’s emergence as a nation in 1971 came at the cost of three million people dead, a quarter of a million women and girls raped, ten million people fled to India, and thirty million people forced to flee their homes.
…
On the evening of March 25, 1971, the military and political elite of West Pakistan with malice aforethought loosed the Army of Pakistan (manned and commanded by West Pakistanis) on the Bengali population of East Pakistan to emasculate the Awami League as a political opponent, to rid the province of East Pakistan of its Hindu population of 10 million persons, and to terrorize the civilian population into complete and permanent submission. This plan of intimidation, brutalization, and extermination of any Bengali who would not accept West Pakistani superiority continued until the West Pakistan military capitulated to the Indian Army on December 16, 1971.
…
Bengali students, professors, and intellectuals were summarily executed. The West Pakistani Army was particularly intent on killing every single Hindu they could find.
…
The Army of West Pakistan turned its fury on the women and girls left behind. Girls and women were publicly raped in front of their family members. They were routinely abducted to special camps near army barracks to be gang-raped, brutalized, and killed, or to live with the eternal shame of their violation. Many committed suicide.
…
In December, when the Army of West Pakistan was finally forced to retreat back into its cantonements, they systematically set about killing all the influential intellectuals and professionals in each city and town where they were besieged. The genocidal campaign of the West Pakistani military elite against the Bengali population of East Pakistan stopped only when the Indian Army disarmed the Army of Pakistan.
…
Genocide as government policy failed to prevent the birth of Bangladesh.
…
The military authorities were able to recruit collaborators from Muslims who had emigrated to East Pakistan from other parts of India after Partition, and from among the East Pakistani political parties opposed to the Awami League, but to no avail in preventing the independence of Bangladesh.
…
Better situated collaborators survived and by 1975 were openly participating in Bangladeshi public life. To this day, an elemental enmity between freedom fighters and collaborators continues to cause political and social turmoil.
Icarsnet,
It seems you are quite fond of JI. I think regarding source and all Tasneem will do reply soon in right time in right place. But It is shame to see some people like you are claim that you are from Bangladesh
Pak major’s account reveals Jamaat role
[Based on the book “Witness to Surrender”–a compelling first-hand narrative by the Pakistani Major Siddiq Salik]
Accounts of the occupation force members too bear out how Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh and its paramilitary wings styled Razakar, Al Badr, and Al Shams Bahini worked fervently against the country’s war of independence.
For instance, Siddiq Salik, who was serving the Pakistan army as a major in Bangladesh in 1971, in his book ‘Witness to Surrender’ recounts the anti-liberation role of Jamaat, Muslim League and Nizam-i-Islam.
He observed that Jamaat leaders collaborated with them [Pakistan army] not only to advance their ideals of Pakistan as an Islamic state, but also to wreak vengeance on people they were at enmity with.
Referring to the drives against Bangalee freedom fighters, he wrote, “These operations were only a partial success because the West Pakistani troops neither knew the faces of the suspects nor could they read the lane numbers (in Bengali). They had to depend on the cooperation of the local people. The Bengalis, by and large, still cherished the hope of Mujib’s return and assumed an attitude of passive indifference.”
He continued, “The only people who came forward were ‘the rightists like Khwaza Khairuddin of the Council Muslim League, Fazlul Qader Chaudhry of the Convention Muslim League, Khan Sobur A Khan of the Qayyum Muslim League, Professor Ghulam Azam of the Jamaat-e-Islami and Maulvi Farid Ahmed of the Nizam-i-Islam Party.”
Describing his experience working with the Bangladeshi collaborators, the book reads, “They had all been defeated by the Awami League in the 1970 elections and carried little appeal for the Bengalis. The people generally felt that they were outdated coins being given currency by the Army once again.
“But the Army, out of sheer necessity, valued their presence and followed their advice. I suggested in one of the meetings that instead of propagating the statements of this ‘outdated coins,’ it would be better to seek the cooperation of teachers, lawyers, artists and intellectuals who command respect in their respective fields.”
Salik began his career as a lecturer after graduating in English literature and international affairs from Punjab University. He had been in journalism before joining the army as a public relations officer.
He came to Bangladesh in January 1970 on a tour of duty that ended with the defeat of Pakistan on December 16, 1971. He was taken as a prisoner of war (POW) in India and was released after two years. He was in the army until his death in 1988.
Published by University Press Limited, Salik’s book is the detailed professional account of the war. It deals mainly with his days during the war and as a POW in India.
Talking about how some members of the Pakistan army conducted themselves during the war, he said, “During these operations, some troops, to the shame of all, indulged in looting, killing and rape. Nine cases of rape were officially reported and the culprits were severely punished, but the damage had been done. How many cases there were in all, I do not know….
“The stories of these atrocities naturally alienated the Bengali population. They were not very fond of us before, but now they hated us bitterly. No serious effort was made to arrest this trend or diminish the hatred. Hence there was no question of mass co-operation by the Bengalis. Only those people joined hands with us who, in the name of Islam and Pakistan, were prepared to risk everything.”
On the collaboration groups, Salik said, “These patriotic elements were organised into two groups. The elderly and prominent among them formed Peace Committees, while the young and able-bodied were recruited as Razakars (volunteers). The committees were formed in Dacca as well as in the rural areas and they served as a useful link between the Army and the local people.
“Razakars were raised to augment the strength of the West Pakistani troops and to give a sense of participation to the local population. Their manpower rose to nearly 50,000 as against a target of 100,000.”
The chapter named ‘Insurgency’ reads, “In September a political delegation from west Pakistan complained to General Niazi that he had raised an Army of Jamaat-e-Islami nominees. The general called me to office and said, ‘From now on, you will call the Razakars, Al-Badr and Al Shams to give the impression that they do not belong to one single party.”
Referring to the ‘dedication’ displayed by the collaborators, it adds, “The Al Badr and Al Shams groups were a dedicated lot, keen to help the army. They worked hard and suffered hard. About 5,000 of them or their dependent suffered at the hands of the Mukti Bahini for the crime of co-operation. Some of them displayed a sense of sacrifice comparable to the best troops in the world.”
In the chapter titled ‘An Opportunity Lost’, Salik wrote, “Some of them were genuinely interested in the integrity of Pakistan and they risked their own lives to cooperate with the Army, but a few of them also used their links with the Army to settle old score with pro-AL people.”
He continued, “For instance, a rightist politician arrived one day in Martial law headquarters with a teen aged boy. He met me by chance on the Veranda and whispered in confidence that he had some vital information to impart about the rebels.
“I took him to the appropriate authority where he said that the boy, a nephew of his, had managed to escape from a rebels’ concentration in Keraniganj across the Burhi Ganga river. The boy added that the rebels not only harassed the locals but also planned to attack Dacca city at night.
“A ‘cleaning operation was’ immediately ordered. The commander of troops was briefed. The field guns, mortars and recoilless rifles were readied to ’soften’ the target in a pre-dawn bombardment. The troops were to make a pincer move to capture it at day-break.
“I watched the progress of the action in the operations room where the gunfire was clearly audible. Soon some automatic weapons also joined the battle. Many people feared that the attacking battalion might not be able to bag all the 5,000 rebels reported in the locality. The operation was over after sunrise. It was confirmed that the target had been neutralised without any casualties to our troops.”
To stress the point once again that the Bangladeshi collaborators had purposes other than pursuing the ideology of an Islamic state, Salik recollects, “In the evening I met the officer who carried out the attack. What he said was enough to chill my blood. He confided. ‘There were no rebels, and no weapons. Only poor country-folk, mostly women and old men got roasted in the barrage of fire. It is a pity that the operation was launched without proper intelligence. I will carry this burden on my conscience for the rest of my life’.”
URL: http://www.bangladeshnews.com.bd/2007/10/28/pak-majors-account-reveals-jamaat-role/
one of my previous posts has been eaten by the spam filter! Can it be retrieved please?
wow, there seem to be a few bangladeshi blogger inbreeding problems here.
I am pro forensic and legal investigation, prosecution and restitution. Am not sure how one can restitute all of the talented people killed in the last stages however. I am anti-infantilisation of the people on this issue. If you looked in a dictionary for the meaning of the law of qisas, you might figure that i’m more hardcore than you people are. Prefer to throw your toys at me? ok but.
If you want to historically place me in your sacred mythology; I’m sympathetic to the moshtaque position of what to do with an election victory rather than tajuddin one, I’m sympathetic to the shamsul huq Awami manifesto of 49 rather than the anIslamic one adopted later while he was in prison. It’s a shame when justice is hijacked, it makes it less likely to unfold. It also makes understanding the many coloured nature of our history difficult when black and white filters are attached.
DS:
There’s liberation and independance with glory attached, and also the colder terms of civil and succession. Colder terms that outsiders and nonflatterers would prefer. In a better arena this would be pedantic nomenclature issue and people would look at the fine structure of the constituent groups.
Sid:
I apologise for my Islamic Supremecism?!?! I still maintain that in the BD context HT is better than a lot of the options out there that only tolerate Islamic identity that is half a skincell or half a braincell deep, that actively encourage students out of Islam and into atheism.
Sharika:
Wrong. See 2nd para. i think what youve just gone and done is invent yourself a form of secularist bastardisation. Its a bit cultish thinking ‘My way, or the highway’.
Tasneem:
You confirm all my beliefs about deshi journos, Peace. With respect and hope for your improvement. Your data (on the jihadi JIB issue) is poor, your vision blurred and your triangulation methods sorely wanting. I’m not on here as a member of a party that wants to eat your children, im interested in why people think the way they do at certain times and with certain prompts.
Oh I see the desperate Islamophobics crying aloud to get some attention. Sorry folks, NOTHING’S GONNA HAPPEN ! However, you will end up selling some more flags. Happy now ? See you next December !
lcarsnet: Where do you find this kind of information? There is no source, no basis, other than some uncultivated thoughts of a delusional mind. Do you even know Wahabi ideology or history?
Brotherman: Surely it’s an age-old trick to discredit someone, as “a delusional mind,” when you can not contest. If you want to engage in a meaningful debate please be armed with logic and information. Please know that I am not someone whom you can brush off by typing in rubbish. Many have tried before and failed.
On Wahhabism, I will just copy two sources from the “Muslim/Islamic scene” ;-P
1. http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/salafi2.html
2. http://www.amislam.com/warning.htm
Fugstar: You are by all means hopelessly pathetic: by logic, language and presentation. As Mash has pointed out above, I see no logic in engaging with a genocide denier in a thread on one of the worst genocides in human history.
Your observation on “deshi journos,” is noted. Would have been nicer if you cared to detail. I would definitely love to know how a United Kingdom-based ranter, so much exposed to “western journalism,” evaluates us — “third-world scribes.”
And what data, vision, method are you talking about? Please try writing something we mortals can read and understand. “A party that wants to eat your children,” wow, brilliant, however, this is not an exercise for your “Creative Writing 453″ course! I am sorry, try again.
fugstar
Hizbut Tahrir, like many Modernist authoritarian utopian ideas cooked up in the 20th century, is a force for anarchy and discord. It will never affect a positive change for the lot of Muslims by remaining in the far right agitating for religious supremacism. They will only continue to attract nutjobs and spread poison.
It now attracts large numbers of disaffected Bangladeshi youth who have simply become radicalised by this far-right, religious supremacism which denies the rights of religious minorities.
Any distortion of politics as long as it has a “Muslim flavour” seems to be worthy of your support. However, HT has got nothing to do with religion and everything to do with reactionary politics - which is why the majority of Muslims who don’t regard Israel as the enemy see HT as a circus freakshow. However, the horrible side-effect is that South Asian kids like you are now inculcated with religious supremacism and anti-semitism even though you have probably never met a Jew in your life.
How exactly is a doctrine which advocates religious and cultural intolerance better than “options out there that only tolerate Islamic identity that is half a skincell or half a braincell deep”?
Ah, denial! It looks familiar. I believe it has something to do with War Crime too, perhaps the presence of a collaborator forefather in the family doesn’t let some people accept the fact that it WAS genocide to which their jamati baaps were complicit.
Sid
are you on drugs ? Yaaba perhaps…
“Bangladeshi blogger inbreeding problem”?
fugstar,
I’ve been noticing these inane generalisation you throw around about Bangalis/Bangladeshis in general. They are almost all pejorative, as the term “inbreeding” here conveys. I’ve called you out on your bullshit generalizations about Bangladeshis before on UV and I’d like to do it again. Please tell me why do you spend so much time on Bangla blogs and in Bangladesh when you have such a dim view of the country and its people. Reminds me of the attitude towards Islam/Muslims of a Renan or a Lewis frankly.
“Colder terms that outsiders and nonflatterers would prefer” - you cannot simultaneously be an outsider and complain about takfir. If you thought deeply about your ideological position before going for a knee-jerk reaction, then perhaps you wouldn’t contradict yourself within a few comments.
Deshi,
Desh kothay? India’r ei dik na ki oi dikey? Islamophobia’r naam diye genocide-denial endorse kora hochchey Pakistani technique, besh purano actually. Lojja nai apnader, tai na?
Tasneem Khalil:
As long as you keep on nagging with some unsubstantiated and preposterous claims, I have to assume either you are lying or delusional. You have provided two web links that cannot be used as a reliable or authentic source of information. In this age and time, everyone is aware of that. I strongly suggest you do little more research on this topic if you wish to continue a meaningful debate.
Finally you wrote:
“Please know that I am not someone whom you can brush off by typing in rubbish. Many have tried before and failed.”
That gave me a good laugh. At least you deserve a “thank you”.
Deashi are you Dealer of Yaaba?
Attn To Moderator
Please take care of all those nionsense personal attaack
Deshi said:
are you on drugs ? Yaaba perhaps…
wow that’s a good argument…
i and a lot of people see HT as a rendition of the islamic left. Always going on about the revolutionary change, decadent elites and the system. Their social origins are also interesting, normally from secular backgrounds (little or no islamic pedigree), breaking into islam in the process, theres something virginal about them. I understand that you prolly dont like that because you see yourself on the left.
i firmly beleive that a bird needs two wings to fly as well as a sense of whats up and down. I alluded to the 1949 mool daabi manifesto because i quite like its islamic, practical and ‘unit self determination’ quality. The islamic left was once represented by those who formulated these demands, the likes of shamsul huq (gen sec AML) under the influence of his teacher abul hashem. i doubt you’ll have heard of them. they dont really come through in the blood wash (he was before it).
HT dont have my support, they have caused me a lot of grief and thwarted(well tried to) many good initiatives from Muslims in the uk. However i still think a beleiver and HT member is a better state of being than an non beleiver and secularist position. (Given constant levels of everything else)
In desh, people’s political palates are crude, everything is about interests rather than higher values. The level of beggarliness promoted by leaders, administrators and others is detrimental to the development of dignity there. HT have some potential because of the dignity value of their ideas, the inferiority complex of some people wrt western education (irony of ironies) and their natively secularised proud lack of formal islamic learning.
One way of learning how to cook and developing some political taste is by increasing the different flavours (options) available. It will also have a positive impact on other islamic forces. I’ve seen that before my eyes. sometimes you need an example of exactly what you shouldnt be to refine your claims.
but please dont be such a person as to play the anti semetic card with me. how naff, im not a palestinian defence consultant and i prolly know and love more jewish people and types of jewish people than you do.
Bangladeshi people in desh, seculars, islamists both are FAR more anti semitic (whatever you think that means) than I. Go on stick a trade embargo on them! Forever going on about muslims in the west needing to ‘be more like the jews’ and attributing incredible, nefarious agency to our cousins.
Below the belt but ok, nobody will really notice now that the genocide glasses are on. Besides maybe you dont recognise that there is such a thing as a belt. Holocaust by meta-association.
Islamism (whatever you imagine that to be) has been very mistaken, on several levels. As a term its not really a native part of an established islamic political philosophical discourse, its created by the west to divide and denigrate. To give ‘Mislamisms’ credit they have taken on a huge challenge and are learning. It is better than the surrender or conversion that some demonstrate with liberalism, secularism and ‘anarchism’. but misguiding in other ways.
Clearly a lot of Bangladeshis couldnt care less but there will always be those that do and who will build on an edifice with such essential value.
back to topic.
How does the term genocide help anybody? I know it will help get international legal attention for data improvement and action. fine.
Other than that i can smell that this whole movement for justice that centres on intermediary militias (rather than the pak govt and its army) is cynical and politically motivated.
Evidence? making equivalence between Shah Abdul Hannan and ‘the others’, shahriar kabirs outrageous but telling statement, the DS transcript, the journalistic behaviour throughout and the beautifully ludicrous spraying of the term genocide denial as a tool to discipline opinion.
Sid, you’ve got ‘cute south asian religion issues’. The point of islamic political posture is not to spread intolerance through the land. Clearly you’ve led yourself to beleive otherwise. Its in the spirit and the fine structure old chap, not the stale writings and headlines.
lcarsnet,
who cares what you are thinking about others.Basically I did not feel to reply your blanket comments.
Basically you even don’t know how much laugh we are having on your stupid comments.
fugstar
If you think the HT are of the left, then you are probably referring to the extreme far left of the type of authoritarian left of the type of Stalin or even Saddam Hussein. In that sense, I agree with you. But then that’s the ideological nexus where the far left and the far right reach equilibrium point and are no longer distinguishable. But to be precise, HT display all the qualities of the far right. Take for example their extremist dogmatic exceptionalism, their religious supremacism, their tendency to blame the world’s ills on racial and ethnic minorities and their hankering for some utopian ideal for which they are willing to advocate (though not practice) violence. If you regard these ideas as “virginal”, then you’re suffering from a serious bout of naiveté at best.
But I don’t think you are naive. Behind all your incomprehensible wordiness, the fluffy statements which take foerver but never make a concrete point, the way you express your ideas with sneaky innuendo is why many people on this thread have called you out for what you are - a dissimulator. You studied in the UK but you can’t seem to express yourself in English for peanuts. And you have a very romantic view of Islamist radicalism which is willfully obtuse when it comes to accepting the death and carnage it has caused in real terms to the people of Bangladesh.
An example of that is this:
Sid, you’ve got ‘cute south asian religion issues’. The point of islamic political posture is not to spread intolerance through the land. Clearly you’ve led yourself to beleive otherwise. Its in the spirit and the fine structure old chap, not the stale writings and headlines.
What exactly us ‘cute south asian religion issues’? Would love to know about it.
It’s not I who have led myself to believe that Islamic political culture has spread intolerance. It’s the very actions of the Islamic political culture itself which has spread intolerance. My beliefs have not caused, in real terms, the death of countless women and children in 1971, the continuing culture of terror aimed at minorities, their continued campaigns against the rights of women in Bangladesh. Unlike you, I don’t apologise for the noxous ideas of Maududi and Qutb and Hizbut Tahrir. In my world, a bigot is a bigot even if they happen to be kneeling 5 times a day in sajda.
I think you think you’re very clever but you actually come across as a bit of an poisonous clown. Judging from the comments made by other more intelligent men and women on this thread, you’ve already given the game away in spite of your gibberish, old chap.
Hello everyone, it seems we may be having some technical trouble with the comments, sorry for this - especially if your long, thoughtful and respectful comments have gone missing ;-) Please keep a copy of comments before you post. We hope to figure out what is happening soon.
Moderator
Thank you Sid for #40!
There is nothing as intolerant as a liberal.
I dont find moududi or qutb ‘noxious’, though i fully realise its fashionable to namedrop them and curse them, especially nowadays. If this were 10 years ago, i don’t think you would have used the word noxious. Your views are very media trend fed, even mechanichally reconstituted. Its ok i suppose, nobody will notice.
Maybe i’ll read them carefully one day with more jagothik glasses on to figure out what the hell all the fuss is about. I prefer a very different array of thinkers and workers. Just because you take your reading lists from somebody dumb doesnt give you any expertise whatsoever to mislead bangladeshi’s further. But hey, play the pied piper, in the key of Flattery.
Congratulations in taking ‘virginal’ idea upside down. i was talking about the people rather than ideas. But i guess you can read in whatever you fancy.
HT, to my knowledge, stick the primary fault for the state of the muslims, on the muslims themselves. I think you’ve muddled the testosterony and unPC PR (which btw has improved of late) with the central core of what they beleive they are about. Thats your choice, to miss the point. Lots of HT have been killed by repressive regimes. It doesnt make them right. but your level of (non)empathy and refusal to see them as people on a journey is interesting.
Cute south asian religion issues… i wouldnt want to build a term just for you. Maybe i’ll dedicate a post one day to the surrendered and afflicted as a whole. Good luck with that bigot antenna of yours!
We need to steer clear of emotion and hyperbole because it blurs the debate. Genocide/civil war/liberation war are semantics. Neither does turning this into a battle of ideologies help advance this issue.
Bangla and Bihari were raped and massacred in 1971 although the majority of victims were the former.
At least publically all are agreed that any parties responsible for such attrocities should not be allowed to operate as our political leaders.
Therefore we must establish once and for all who these people are and what they did and for this judgement to be reached transparently by a respected and universally accepted court / commission / panel.
Then we can move on. This should be in the interests of all well-meaning parties as it provides the double benefits of closure for those who are haunted by apparent escapees from justice and it should allow others to operate without being falsely tarnished as Rajjakars at each turn.
This post has been deleted by a Global Voices moderator.
Dear Sid:
It appears you have a tendency of personal attack when you run out of logic. And, unfortunately, it happens very often. I suggest you calm down and do little more research on the subject matter with an unbiased mind. Only facts and logic are going to lead you towards the right direction.
You wrote: “It’s not I who have led myself to believe that Islamic political culture has spread intolerance. It’s the very actions of the Islamic political culture itself which has spread intolerance.”
YES, it is YOU who led yourself believe in this. As I suggested above that you need to do little more research and read more news.
Wow…. we seem to have found fugstar machII in icarsnet.
I find it hilarious that someone who started off this thread by calling Mujib a “penguin coat” with all its derogatory implications suddenly becomes aware of “personal attacks”.
“What happened in Aug 15 1975 was a half done job by our patriotic Armed forces”
I think it is safe to say that no one should take icarsnet seriously after this statement. It’s absolutely understandable if the moderators did not understand the significance of what he’s trying to say. August 15th was when Sheikh Mujib was assassinated along with his entire family, including women and children. Icarsnet in saying it was “a half done job” is asking for more blood. Surely this is against the commenting policy of globalvoices?
This is what I don’t get about the mentality of people like icarsnet. Very first comment he says “liberation war was a mistake, Bangladesh was a mistake”, but he’s ready to sing praises to the “patriotic armed forces”! Without Bangladesh, there is no BANGLDESH ARMED FORCES! These are simple logical matters, and the few army people I’ve met know this. Sadly, right-wing nut jobs like icarsnet need blogs to educate them on these basic logical dilemmas their beliefs have got them into.
Icarsnet said:
We MUST NOT indulge in meaningless emotional talk of genocide
Icarsnet, in comment #25, I cited for you the major scholarly works on genocide all of which refer to the Bangladesh Genocide. There is overwhelming evidence of genocide - the issue is not in doubt except in the minds of genocide deniers like you. Obviously facts are not important to you.
Instead, you expose your lust for murder and genocide by saying this:
I completely agree and that’s why we need to exterminate leaders like Hasina, Khaleda, and their families to ever become our leaders. What happened in Aug 15 1975 was a half done job by our patriotic Armed forces and the leftover rottens are leading our country backwards.
Are you actually advocating murder on a public forum? And, you expect people to take you seriously about history.
There can be only 1!
My apologies. The post reference above was posted by an error. Encouraging killing and genocide do not fit well with Global Voices guidelines for respectful and non-hateful conversation.
Best,
Moderator
The current army backed government is also exterminating most of the top political leaders - comeuppance - does it mean they are killing them? This is why I asked you all not to be so emotional and jump to an unfledged conclusion.
If suppressing my voice - which debunked your denials - makes you feel very democratic, then certainly you have achieved a milestone, congratulations!
By the way, my screen name is not “icarsnet”, it’s “LCARSNET”.
Journey To infinitive: (#40)
You don’t think we laugh at your ignorance? lol… like how you all nag like babies…”genocide! genocide!” and wake up in the middle of night :)
#53 is a sad retreat for you ELcarsnet. I copy pasted your quote which said that the KILLINGS of August 15th were a “half-done job”. You did not say anything about any metaphorical “extermination”.
And in case your ammajaan and abbajaan did not teach you: asking for someone’s death is a crime, not a democratic right. Debating history - even when half of the “debate” comes from half-baked commenters such as yourself - is a democratic right, not a crime. I’d spell it out in Urdu for you, but fortunately we are not forced into doing that anymore.
Namaste (hope the spelling is right) DhakaShohor:
August 15 should be celebrated as a Natioanl Liberation Day. I have made myself very clear this time so that you don’t get confused. And, YES, it was a half done job and that is why the current government is doing the rest - hopefully, they will be able to complete the half done job before the next election. On a side note, this will also mean no more “PhD” & “MakeUps” wasting tax payers money.
Speaking of wolf in sheep’s clothing, perhaps, you could use a Hindi nick name to better reflect your nature & interest :)
By the way, thank God, both you and I can read more than “four” newspapers today - thanks to the real heroes of Aug 15.
Yours truly,
LCARSNET
DS theres no need to urdubash, most of time its wholly irrelevant. you know more urdu through bollywood than any of us..erm conservatives.
El Cars Net, please explain the name.
Solano, this whole topic is politically ugly, genocide politics always is, brings out the beast from the pits of ones being. A resolution approach would be ideal but there is no way of trusting the actors who play games with it.
There are many kinds of genocide. There is only kind of genocide-denier.
Fugstar,
Not “El Cars Net”, it’s “LCARS”, meaning Library Computer Access and Retrieval System - yes, I am a trekkie.
Sid, here is one for you:
“A witty saying proves nothing.” - Voltaire
Sorry folks, there was a typo in my last message. It should have read:
“There are many kinds of genocide. There is only ONE kind of genocide-denier.”
This is proved by the fact the all the genocide-deniers on this thread seem to be many (or at least two) versions of the same sock-puppet.
Some of these use 2nd-generation British immigrant religious-identity politics and try and transplant these misbegotten values onto the Bangladeshi Independence narrative.
Another kind is the false-dichotomies of reactionary Bangladeshi nationalists who exhort the killing of politicians, deny the rape of thousands of women in 1971. They are the Bangladeshi version of Vidkun Quisling, and they say things like:
“August 15 should be celebrated as a Natioanl Liberation Day.”
August 15 was the assassination of Sheeikh Mujib. What they fail to realise is that without his efforts, there would be National Liberation to speak of.
Both messages are the same: a hodge-podge of Islamist subtext and ahistorical blather.
ah a trekkie, i can use some symbols that are beyond brainwashing with you. i think one needs to be more vulcan and less Klingon, Cardassian and Romulan in this matter. August 15 didnt need to happen, upstream events should not have allowed the situation to decend so much further down. The date has nonmurder significance and should mark the end of british rule, not typify deshi confusion. A vulcan would probably busy himself with constructive future building than being stuck in this glorious rut that is created now and again to rally the romulans and create new ones.
Sid, theres valid reasons for questionning the political use of genocide, the statistics and the laying of intentions onto the dying lips of x shaheed. Sitting in the uk or in bangladesh doesnt really affect that, it never has.
Identity politics has a bloodier and stupider dynamic in bangladesh than in the uk btw.
I disagree. I don’t buy the argument that dealing with the future is mutually exclusive to dealing with the past. Jewish people have shown that it is possible to progress inestimably whilst trying to resolve the pain of mass murder.
Once again, you expose your tendency to transpose your interpretation of genocide in Bangladesh and the aftermath by suggesting that August 15 should be of no consequence to the Bangladeshi historical narrative and instead we should be be celebrating the date as the anniversary of India ending colonial rule! No doubt you’d love to be able to delete the messy stories of mass-rape and mass-graves from the history books as well.
Like I said before (but it was eaten by this forum’s spam filter) British Muslim identity politics is based on two attitudes:
1) Post-colonial grudge-bearing is the cornerstone of Islamist angst and identity.
2) That the narrative of the immigrant Bangladeshi is ethically superior, or more significant, than the narrative of the people of the “motherland” (whether Pakistan or India and in some cases India).
But first we must ask you this question - why should a Muslims not wish for justice, since the theocratic laws for accountability are, as you must know, pretty clear cut. How come secular values of “progress” are suddenly more important for you when it comes for accountability of the Genocide of 1971? It’s all rather un-Islamist of you. Not very Gene Rodenberry either, I suspect.
fugstar,
This might come as a shock to you, but I don’t watch bollywood. And I’ll “bash” Urdu all I want unless you want to come out for the Pakistani nationalist you are instead of pretending to be a Bangladeshi national half the time.
EL Carsnet,
Well done. You have not only negated my Islamic faith because I do not support murder of innocents, you have also made me an advocate of BAKSHAL. Since you seem to know my interests so well, why don’t you go to my blog and see what I have had to say about BAKSHAL and Awamis in general?
What a sad pitiful excuse for conservatives you choose fugstar. I cannot but laugh at this lovefest going on here between two people with real identity issues when it comes to choosing between Bangladesh and Pakistan.
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i dont know what the star trek author would have to say about south asian affairs, but the plot line of the new battlestar gallactica is intriguing.
I think the ethical inferiority complex of the motherlander south asian has nothing to do with me at all.
I’d describe myself as more ‘third worldist’ and prefer madani’s composite nationalism idea over what has unfolded. However i do value all experiments with muslim modernity, so i dont write off alighar completely.
I agree with ali asghar engineers statement that the muslims of india got a syed ahmed khan, but needed a dr ambedkar. but then again your vision’s are so narrow that i really doubt you know the significance of either of them. Thats not because you may be ’southern’ just a function of your values and reading.
My identity is not the function of 9/11, or born agained ness, nor anti religious reaction nor the product of a couple of generations of living in interesting places. Your pickled political limitations are showing, best get out the hair dye.
I wouldn’t expect any of you to even know about madani… except sid might have come across yayha birt writing about him. Bloggerganj is pretty void of actual content and rammed full of press comment. I suppose ahistoricity and areligiosity are relative.
On the urdu, your bollywood titilation option has come up before thats all. It just makes you look pettier than you are. Language issue has been overdone to the public detriment. Besides its not an issue of choosing between aid dependant non states, its more about being and bringing into being.
I know what i do not aspire to reproduce and where there is no inspiration to be had http://www.bangladeshsociology.org/BEJS%204.2%20Dola.pdf
Table 8.
but DS, you can say what you like about baksal and the AL and your religious affiliation. The political dogma at the core of your analysis. ie heroism of tajudin the escalator, and the gratuity of your genocide denier accusation habit makes it hard (for Klingons)to distinguish you from the general mass of Romulan 71 worshippers (astagfirullah). Do you even ackowledge that the Moshtaque position existed?
So on what grounds of Sharia Law would you deny the efforts of the millions of killed and raped in Bangladesh in 1971 to get justice? I ask this because I can’t seem to see anything that suggests the “forgive and forget” line in the theology that you’re advocating.
I might need the hair dye, but at least I don’t need mental crutches. They see to be standard issue with people who base their ideas on dear old Imam Maududi (and his hand in the anti-Ahmiddiyah massacre in Pakistan in the 1950s).
I dont base my conception on him, i dont own his mistakes. Too much media feeding to you im afraid. I dont know where you got the idea of his imamity from.
Im not a lawyer or a theologian, but im slightly aquainted with the higher objectives of the sharia which prioritise the protection of religion, life, dignity, intellect and property. You’re too enamoured with pinning a denial badge on me to get it i think.
The law of qisas (retribution) is really quite easy to find out about, though compensation is quranically recommended. The concept of maslaha(public interest) also exists. Its like other humanly derived cultures of law in that there exist differences of opinions and schools of thought, nowadays it seems only a topic through which to denigrate muslims or commodify religious demands.
Anyway reliablity of data, witnesses and detail would be a necessary and time consuming task in such proceedings. Are you willing to stand up and say 3 million? Perhaps, but i dont know how you would do it. The rage with which questions are slapped down in the official version of events is amazing.
Mufti Mustafa Ceric of Sarejevo, a student of dr Fazlur Rahman has spoken publically about the ‘moving on’ and how in his experience those who have moved on are faring better. I think he’d be able to shed better light on it if you were interested. Then theres the mufti of Rwanda… such folks arent in your mental scheme of authority…. so whats the point?
Unfortunately Islamically versed and inclined intellectuals in desh have all but died, been killed off, defamed, exiled, marginalised and infantalised to really develop such ideas to sufficient degree. There are a few knocking around, but i dont think they would rush to service this politically created initiative at this stage and in this form.
It is unfortunate that there is pretty much only one group that has survived the ideological purge and that it is plagued with this baggage and doesnt really know as much as it thinks it does. (not all of it mind you, even Awami leaders i have spoken with grasp that much).
fugstar,
Please refresh my memory: where has the Bollywood “tittilation” come in? Can you talk in anything other than innuendo?
“DS, you can say what you like about baksal and the AL and your religious affiliation. The political dogma at the core of your analysis. ie heroism of tajudin the escalator, and the gratuity of your genocide denier accusation habit makes it hard (for Klingons)to distinguish you from the general mass of Romulan 71 worshippers (astagfirullah). Do you even ackowledge that the Moshtaque position existed?”
Posting a few lines with regards to Tajuddin doesn’t make one a Tajuddin worshipper. I like Tajuddin only as much as he was for democracy and against BAKSHAL. I like Moshtaque only as much as he was for Bangladesh and against Pakistan (which is to say, not much). What exactly is the Mushtaque position to you? It has several meanings to me, and why would I deny its existence even if I don’t approve of it?
Basically what you’re trying to say is your friend elcarsnet’s little takfir of me is fine by you and you won’t raise your voice on that, unless and until I agree with your juvenile, inconsistent attempts at political analysis, genocide denial and general obfuscation.
Are you an Islamist or a Muslim first?
“I wouldn’t expect any of you to even know about madani… ”
Can anyone else believe this high-horse old fudgestar’s riding? Sid, any comments?
Reading over fugstar’s comments, I find that it is strewn with comments about “our lack of knowledge”. Methinks we have hurt the gentleman’s feelings. Nothing personal was ever meant, fugstar. I for one was simply trying to understand the deep contradictions in your own vision of history in general.
define islamist and muslim please. CLearly id hope to be the latter. I object to most use of islamism and have made up very many terms over the years that im happy to aim towards.
Moshtaque position of Bangali raj and compromise cf Tajuddins warpath go to india and set up shop idea.
As a Muslim, you should raise your voice against every attempt at takfir instead of selected attempts at takfir. The attempt at takfiring me out of this debate was ludicruous; and your silence, complicity and almost-endorsement of it in #68 is particularly galling given that you’re one of the oldest readers of my blog.
Just because an idiot agrees with you on this thread and people as smart as yourself don’t, doesn’t mean you have to act like an idiot yourself fugstar.
The Mushtaque position if I recall correctly was also made in India in 1971. And I never applauded Tajuddin’s decision to flee to India (but given the odds, I refuse to condemn it also), just as I never applauded his socialist policies. Ironically, the one thing that endears me to Tajuddin is his opposition to BAKSHAL. Ironic, because BAKSHAL was exactly what I was accused of defending a few days back.
fugstar, you cannot simultaneously accuse non-Islamist/”secularist” (for want far better words) bloggers here of failing to distinguish between strands of Islamists and then fail to differentiate between strands of non-Islamist bloggers. What am I supposed to reply when after almost 6 months of blogging about the excesses of the Awamis and outright condemning BAKSHAL, I have to hear you speak approvingly of people failing to “distinguish you from the general mass of Romulan 71 worshippers”. WELL, CORRECT THEM!
But that’s where the Islamist steps in. An Islamist is an opportunist manipulator of Islamic symbols. He’ll cry out takfir when it suits him. He’ll gladly overlook it - if not join it in everything but name - when it is done against ideological enemies whose faith in Islam he has had no reasons to doubt. A Muslim would not do that.
No hard feelings as ever. This isn’t personal, this isn’t about the religion or even religious politics. This is about death and destruction in which a party was complicit. A party you have been busy defending/apologising for ever since this controversy broke out. Worse, you are using our religion to do it. Worst, you have almost come to the verge of calling everyone here who wants justice (the majority of Bangladeshis, the majority of whom are Muslims) “non-Muslims”.
Fugstar:
Vulcan logic could be a good tool against the Romulans. However, “Sujatlh ‘e’ yImev” with a Klingon attitude is the right approach against the Ferengis.
I understand you disagree with what I said about Aug 15 - the day of our real liberation from fascism & anarchy - however, I have met many who concurred with my views. The emotional manipulation by the neocons will not be able to stop the free thinkers from reexamining the past and questioning the validity of a Sci-Fi genocide.
Heghlu’meH QaQ jajvam,
LCARSNET
spam filter seems to eat my posts
We are a group of people working on a Brooklyn based bangladeshi website. It’s good to see such clever discussions being posted here. We would like you to visit what we have done so far for
http://www.brooklynvoice.com
Lcarsnet,
I dont speak klingon, exept for the war cry ‘kesho jezvam jezkak’. I hear they were based on gengis kha, not my favourite person.
For many the war symbolises everything that they want to identify themselves with. And tbh our people are nothing like ferengis, ferengis are very adaptable and incredible capitalists. We tend to become very jealous of the feregingis, we kick them out and drive their industries into the ground. Maybe bajorans (minus their mighty formal religious infrastructure) would fit better. The battle scars, the fragility, the resilience, the personal kindliness… and of course the total dependance on the Federation for most things.
People cannot create national honour out of nothing these days. Bangladesh’s, officially at least rests on the war. From the militias to the provisional government, the beaurocracy and military, the symbolic capital associated with the war are vital to maintain their standing and their interests. Without it and the symology of the movements around it some people have nothing else to feel nationally proud off. be vulcan, not klingon and definately not cardassian.
Aug 15th and the way you interpret it, around mujib, rather than british political withdrawal is just as bitter if not moreso than a lot of the 71 worship ’string ‘em up’ approach.
If the league had taken wiser more longterm visioned steps during the decade before, history would have unfolded better. Bangladesh wouldnt have such suicidal political culture and would have many more talente