For Tibetan independence movement, most Taiwanese support and sympathize Tibetans, and many people changed their twitter profile figure to the flag of Tibet which represents Tibetan independence movement.
‘Free Tibet' (Photo courtesy of skydaughter.)
Many artists, writers, musicians, and social movement participants held ‘Bringing love to Tibet' to pray for Tibetans:
多年來，台灣年輕志工的身影，經常出現在全球各地需要協助的所在。如今，與台灣只隔著中國的西藏，受到暴力鎮壓，台灣年輕人感同身受，決心挺身聲援，用音樂、詩歌聲援西藏。
Compared to other countries, Tibetan independence movement has a very special meaning for Taiwan. Most of the discussions are based on empathy, because Taiwan and Tibet are both threatened and manipulated by China. Terry said,
我個人很畏懼這個國家（中國）過往的殘酷紀錄，我高中時爆發的天安門事件，根據現在許多的證據顯示，當年天安門事件的確出動了軍隊鎮壓，並且開槍殺死了許多人民，對於這樣一個雙手沾滿血腥的鄰居，我只用戒慎恐懼來形容。
我身邊有許多人說：我們有中文語言的優勢，我們不應該自絕跟這個鄰居做生意，讓自己經濟繁榮的機會。但如果這樣的經濟繁榮機會，最後卻讓自己陷入被鎮壓、同時無法擁有民主自由的現在，我會寧可選擇保守一點，日子苦一點無所謂，但我想要高興談論、自由呼吸自由存在。
Some people reflected Taiwan's history and compared its own oppressed past with Tibetan independence movement. Judie said, Tibetans are in their 228 Massacre.
圖博人正在經歷他們的二二八，與外來統治者展開艱難的鬥爭。[…]他們的行動被統治者誤解、汙衊，無辜者的血繼續流，傷痕正在加深…….
Many people criticized the mass media in Taiwan. Jas took blocking the news about Tibet for example and said, because the sources and gatekeepers are different, this independence movement is reported differently.
（中國）過去稱六四天安門為一小撮人，稱台獨為一小撮人，如今又同樣以一小撮人來指涉被迫害的西藏人。
Tucci in Germany compared the news about Tibet in Taiwan and Germany, and said the news is obviously less in Taiwan than in Germany.
一個國家動用軍警武力殺害抗議的人民，是對人權最赤裸的摧殘與蔑視；[…]我想這件事的歷史重要性不會在六四天安門之下，但很遺憾的是，國內的主要媒體的新聞處理淡很多，跟德國所有全國性的媒體統統頭版處理差別實在很大。
Sindia in Beijing talked about the information blockage in China.
有人問我北京人對西藏事件的看法，在這種情形下，北京人連西藏發生了什麼事恐怕都不知道，知道的也就是一面倒的聲音，若干藏民暴徒挑起暴亂，傷害無辜漢族百姓，達賴在背後策動，目的是要搗亂奧運，爭取獨立。這就是所有來自中國媒體的新聞角度，在這種情形下，北京一般民眾，還能有什麼看法？
Although China government blocks the information, due to the advance of technology, some people in China tries to use instant messanger and twitter to see people's comment about the protest in Tibet, even though they are confused or unhappy. A message in zola may show some people's opinions:
西藏現在需要的，是健康的發展和對藏文化的保護，以及西藏問題的和平解決，罈子裡這些喊打喊殺的兄弟，如果你們有一個真正的藏族朋友，也許你們就不會說那些話了。
Annpo asked Chinese friends through twitter, and one of them who worked in Tibet said:
藏区的生活的确改善很大，起码比周边的国家都不错，这是应该看到的。但[…]生活好了，就会满足吗？[…]政府免费让他们读书，却用的是汉族课本。[…]藏族人对青藏铁路并不完全是支持的。而在拉萨日益繁华的时候，我那些老藏族的邻居却一个个都搬走了，这些难道还不够说明问题？
There are other people caring about Tibet. Reiw in Hong Kong made a detail analysis and zola shared the summary of the news. Chao-Chen Lin, a reporter interviewing Dalai Lama and many Tibetans before, explained the problem of Tibet is due to the failure of conversation between Dalai Lama and Chinese government, and the development brought by China government that destroys their culture.
Acknowledgment: Annpo wrote this article, and I-Fan edited and translated it into English.
The main difference between Tibetans and Taiwanese is pretty obvious by the result of the recent presidential election. Tibetans due to their religious practices (just my opinion) are less affected by materialistic needs, while Taiwanese obviously care about their own economy a lot more. Hence you have massive popular support for the KMT although KMT was once the suppressor and is more friendly towards China today than DPP. Tibetans for the most part were against the railroad which would obviously bring them more business opportunities and are supporting Dali Lama.
As a Han Chinese I do not like TI types who like to talk about BSR and WSR, nor do I care much for the loud Tibetans and Tibetophiles whose arrogance IMO is mismatched by reality. I am not sure why anyone would. If Taiwanese and Tibetans want to be independent the only way to do so is to appeal to the moderate Chinese and there are many out there. Stirring up Chinese nationalism as Tibetans did in this case is only helping Chinese government to gain more control over Western media. What the Chinese government fears the most is not the Tibetans revolting, but its own people revolting. This whole Tibet incident and the after myth where Chinese Netizens jumped on western media bias only gives the Chinese government more mandate over its suppression.
虽然我是女孩子,外国朋友都说我很温柔,但今天请允许我开骂:我讨厌台湾人,真不明白大家干麻要收台湾,我真的不稀罕,没有台湾,我们照样高速发展,30年后让”狗们”看看. 亏每年大陆让台湾大笔顺差,那些个钱，还不如捐给慈善机构．我们还有香港和澳门呢.台湾人的电视剧也是很没深度,动不动就是就是涉及男女肉体接触的东西．告诉你们，不是＂抗议＂，是＂煽动＂，你就跟着美国喊吧．民族问题？那怎么一直没事，偏偏在奥运年？还有５４个少数民族呢．
you have ever been to China? could you know more than a people who live in China? Do you know what our text books teach us on religion and nationality unity? Our teacher tell us from childhood that 56 ethnical goups should help each other and live together happily, which is also our government ’s nationality policy. China is a country of 56 ethnical groups . Not only tibatan chinese are minority goups. The han-chinese live wih other minority groups harmoniously for a long time.In my 25 years of life , i never heard any unhappy dispute beteen ethnical groups.we are very united.Don’t you know how strong the influence of religion can be? This time, i totally believe if a religion leader let his followers kill others, his followers can do . this time, it is just Dala who prompt his (followers)monks and small goup of Tibetan chinese to do those crimes. The small goup of criminals can’t represent the whole Tibetan chinese. Large number of Tibetan chinese are now scattered on all part of China. some of Tibetan chinese are famous singers and movie stars in Beijing, Shanghai.Oh, i know, many of your journalist are in Beijing now, i suggest your great jounalist can visit these Tibetan singers and stars to see what they say. i am very confident that they will support my standpoints . Dut to its geographical condition–Tibet are on 4000 meters plateau,Tibet is obviously less developed than other parts of China. Ordinary people who go there can feel ill because of the scarce of Oxygen there.Our chinese government every year send many scholors from other parts of china to help Tibetan chinese building their homes(even our president is ever the governor of Tibet) and carried out a policy that minority goups are more privileged than main chinese group in education such as score-adding on main examination. stop criticizing, mind your own business. All chinses people are like one family . we love China. our internal affairs should be decided by 56 ethnical goups of chinese. now, millions of young chinese are supporting our goverment. we only want peace to develop our economy. Tibet Independence??? no problem, we wonder what kind of economical condition they can reach to if they are without help from other parts of China.
what do you guys know about what happened in Tibet?You’ve got pictures?you’ve got videos showing how “cruel” Chinese goverenment cracked down the uprising?Tell you what,I can show you lots of clips how Tibetan rioters burnt stores even school,beating killing Han Chinese people.
You Taiwanese always like to link current status to history.Why don’t you damn Japanese cause they started 2nd WW?They treated you like what?Why’re you guys still speaking Chinese?Shame on you people.
To Ur Chinese friend:
In Taiwan, people can have different opinions. Even people support KMT can support Tibet. Most Taiwanese, like Tibetans, does not like China’s threat, and this is why many Taiwanese empathy Tibetans–we do not need to be identical to have empathy.
To all 56 ethnical groups of China are united:
You are right and wrong.
You are right that Tibetans started this movement because everyone is watching the Olympic Game, as many cooperations have their advertisement in the Olympic Game.
However, it is not a golden rule that “all 56 ethnic groups of China are united,” even though your teachers taught you so. If you do think this is a golden rule, please try to prove it.
By the way, many Taiwanese have been to China, and I am glad to hear that you do not support China to “unite” Taiwan. And, if you feel like doing charity in Tibet, you should listen to their needs.
To KDING:
If your post is not a spam, you should know there is a link mentioned in this post that you can see the photos: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dggh5mp6_73fvdxt4c9
In these photos, at least I can see:
(1) There are Tibetans asking for independence.
(2) China government have military force to oppress the movement.
I would like to hear your opinions about why China government did not allow any journalist to stay when their military went to Tibet, if they did not do anything against human right.
About your question, I like to study current events as well as history, and I believe most Japanese will not say ’shame on me’ when I discuss how Japan started WWII.
Go check out your own ROC map to see if Tibet is part of China or not. Even Mongolia if part of ROC map. I have many Taiwanese friends, none of them has opinions like those on this board.
If you are Young Taiwanese so you say your are, your education system has failed you, you know neither history nor geograph. Your poor thing!!!
Gina, if you did not receive Taiwan’s education, I recommend you not to draw any conclusion like this and to be polite. When our teachers teach geography, they teach something more than the map you mentioned. For example, we know Mongolia is an independent country although the ROC map doesn’t say so. Let me make this point clear again: Taiwanese can have different views toward the world, so you do not need to attack some people’s argument only because you happen to know others’ have different opinions.
Gina and Kding are absolutely right. this ifan’s teachers
might be japanese origin. In Taiwan the young kids are
brain-washed badly by the Chen s.b government.They feel
it is a fasion to talk about independence without knowing
the ultimate effect of it on the Chinese nation’s position
in this world. it’s like kids loving Mc-Donalts’garbage
food without knowing it’s harmful to health.
To History Student,
Thanks for your comment. However, as far as I know, China government also recognizes Mongolia’s independence, and I wonder why you think my history teacher who taught me that is Japanese origin? What’s the correlation?
Our president, Chen Shui-bian, and his party, Democratic Progressive Party, and many other people, including professors in history and constitution and other related fields, have worked on the history about Taiwan’s status as independence for decades. We are still working on it, and it is too brash to say independence is a fashion in Taiwan. If it is a fashion, it might become a fashion that lasts for many generations.
First of all, although I do not agree with ifan, I do respect your politeness toward different opinions! I am a Chinese from mainland, I hope when we talk something political, we can first of all calm down ourselves!
Second of all, let me also assure you that we mainlanders love peace but we cannot bear our lovely country to be seperated. We will not give up any part of our country! We love and respect people and countries who love and cherish peace! However, if they do anything to jeopardize the integrity of our country and our nation, we will not just sit there and do nothing! That’s for sure!
Dear lljude,
Thanks for your respect to different opinions, and I think this respect is the foundation for discussion.
Although I think the first priority is human right, I understand that some people think the first priority is the integrity of a country. However, if we take Tibet for example, the government Dalai Lama leads in India asks for an autonomic government in Tibet instead of independence or separation. How do you explain why China government refuse to set it as an important goal and have conversation with Dalai Lama with respect?
To ifan:Outer-Mongolia became independent when China was
weak and helpless and it was part of the Russian plot to
keep China smaller and devided. China is not that weak
any more and she is becoming more powerful all along.Now
some people in Taiwan still daydream about a similar
plot by the Americans and Japanese to separate Taiwan
from our motherland, how could we agree?! The external
forces support you not in the least because they love
you and care about your well-being but because they want
to prevent China from claiming her historical place in
the world. You said that some of the people in Taiwan are
working to make the island independent, I don’t doult
this, but I can tell you that We in mainland China are
also working to keep China as one and I believe that with
1.3 billion patriotic Chinese we fear nothing and nobody
be they americans,japanese and chen cliches, the days
when China was ordered by the west are gone and we will
never allow any regional separatist forces to split our
nation again.Taiwan has been part of the Chinese nation,
it isn’t a separate nation, you speak the Chinese language, have the same cultural tradition and religious
philosophical background as us, why are you so obsessed
with the notion of independence? There are more than 5000
nations in the world but just around 200 countries, why
not stay as part of China and try to make the Chinese
strong in the world? China doesnot want to control Taiwan
as Chen propagates to you, China just doesn’t want Taiwan
to be controlled by USA or Japan and used as a strategic
base to chect China.Taiwan cannot afford to stay neutral
even if it becomes independent,it will either lean over
China or China’s enemies.I understand that the young
generation of Taiwan has grown up under the education of
the independent elements and talk about the regonal
identity while forgetting about the inner link with the
Chinese history.Independence will not change your identity, it just give you a different passport,in the end you are still Chinese Taiwanese or Taiwanese Chinese.
You might be born in Taiwan but you shouldn’t forget where your blood comes from,you might be told that Japan
helped to developed Taiwan but you shouldn’t forget the
japanese had killed millions of Chinese in history, you
might believe that Uncle Sam provides you with weapons
but you shouldn’t forget he does this for his own national interest,not for yours; When national interest
demands he will turn his back on you as President Nixon
did in the 1970s.Taiwan is destined to be part of China
due to its history and geographic position.What’s so bad
about that? Chinese will not remain weak,China will rise
whether her rivals like it or not.I think some of the
young people are snobish, they are so eager to identify
themselves with the rich and try their best to distance
themselves from their not-so-rich-yet relatives, it’s
betrayal.Your president Chen has done his uttermost to
promote the separation of Taiwan from China and if his
idea is so popular, why in the election the DPP failed
and the UN referendom also failed? Independence trend
in Taiwan might last for some years to come but China
will not sit idleness forever waiting for the island to
slide away.When it comes to the worst and war breaks out,
who will benefit? Not the mainland,not the island,but
China’s rivals.In history China suffered from one and
half century’s humiliation during which all the western
powers fought her and beat her,with this hurt dignity
and pride nowdays no Chinese leader can still be accepted
by the Chinese people if he or she could defend the
Chinese territorial integrity. War is the last thing that
any Chinese wants against Taiwan, after all we are of the
same ancestral origin, however When the indepentent elements in the island pushes the mainland to the corner
war might become the only option.
To ifan:
Yes, I also think that respect is the foundation for the discussion, so there we go!
To answer your question, Tibet is in fact an autonomous region in China. The governor of Tibet is actually Tibetan and his name is Chamba Phuntsok.
Talking about human right, I believe all the Chinese people take human right as our priority too. That’s why our government is working on bettering people’s living standard and our diligent people are striving for it! Looking at the Tibetan human right record, I don’t know if you have any comprehensive knowledge of its past history, but as far as I know, before the liberation of Tibet in 1959, most of the Tibetan civilians were slaves who were living under huge repressions! After the liberation, the majority of the Tibetans’ lives have been tremendously improved. I believe before talking about how beautiful and sacred the word human right is, one has to be able to feed themselves. And I’m not saying our government’s job on Tibet is simply perfectly or has no space for improvement, but at least, they’re doing it!
Many Western Media say that Tibetans in Tibet are second class citizens, but as far as I know, our government’s policies allow them to have more then one kid whereas Han nationals are not allowed at all! And their kids can go to college with much lower entry requirement! And they can curry knife when walking down the street with them as it’s a respect to their custom. Plus the huge amount of investment that our government has put on Tibet’s infrastructure…. I believe the beneficiary of all those policies is the ordinary Tibetan people.
As far as human right is concerned, our point is that we love human right, but we cannot tolerant the hypocritical western countries or western media who use the mass media to intervene in our domestic policy, development and to damage our national pride.
The western media says that they have successfully liberated Iraq and made it a great democratic new country, however, what are the real lives of the ordinary Iraqis like today? Go figure. I bet most of the Chinese people and Tibetans would rather live in China instead of Iraq (No offense at all to the Iraqi people).
Now, I really have a question. Why didn’t those western countries help to improve the human right of the Tibetan people before 1959? Why didn’t those western countries care about the human right in China while they were invading our country and grabbing our wealth and killing our people in the early 20th century? All the western countries who are accusing of our poor human right record have all got bloody hands in our country’s history! Just look at the Chinese treasures in the British museum, do you think we handed all those stuff to them with a huge hug and smile on the face?
And now, when our government (I’m not saying is perfect) is working on strengthening our country and enriching our people (including the Tibetan people whom we regard as our brothers), they are criticizing our human rights? Why don’t they find something else to do for a change!
Again, nice talking to you!
Thanks for History Student’s and lljude’s response.
To lljude, I know there is an autonomic government in Tibet, but why does Dalai Lama not have equal opportunity to be the leader of this autonomic government? Moreover, if China government is so kind to Tibetans, why do many Tibetans need to stay in India?
I have been to XingJang and my friends have been to Tibet, and our observation agrees with the statement that the original residents in these areas (Muslims in XingJang and Tibetans) are suppressed and invaded by Han people (with economic force and culture). I saw this phenomenon by my own eyes, not by the western media.
To History Student:
First, not all people with any Han blood should be ruled by China. This is not the way to define a country.
Second, not all the areas once ruled by China should be belong to China’s territory forever. If what you said is the case, China should be governed by Mongolia now or in the future, because China was once ruled by the sons of Genghis Khan.
Third, when people criticize the human right problems in China, I do not think it is wise to attack others’ deficiency. China is a big country with long history and great culture, Chinese should try to make yourself as a leader in human right instead of trying to avoid being the last one.
ifan,
You say that most Taiwanese do not like the Chinese threat. Is this related to BSR people’s prejudice towards WSR? Because if you say that most Taiwanese are threatened by the Chinese then how is it possible that China is Taiwan’s number one trade partner, and that the recent Taiwanese election replaced a pro-Independence minded President with one which is a lot more friendlier with China? If the BSR Taiwanese can sympathize with Tibet’s plight because of the treatments from the bad bad Chinese (or WSR as the locals would like to call them), then how can it be that today Taiwanese majority has elected the KMT party, who was responsible for the slaughtering locals only decades earlier?
To Ifan:Thank you for your comments.My response are:
Firstly,I don’t say all the people with Chinese Han
blood should belong to one country,for us that’s neither
necessary nor desirable. China has always been more of
a cultural entity than of a nation-state,most of the people
in the west and in the world at large fail to realize
this, that’s why they often feel at loss when they try
to understand China.
Secondly,a nation-state exists and expands continously
by maximizing its power,those who are strong do this with
might while those who are incapable become dominated by
others,that’s the essence of “Real Politik”.There is no
morality in it.A nation is more often than not a mere
imagination invented by various historical and cultural
symbols bonded together to” Make-believe” and maintain
the nationals’ emotions and sense of collective belong-
ingness.It’s true that in history the Chinese nation
was conquered and ruled by the Mongols and the manchus,
however,those two nations were culturally less developed
than the Chinese one,that’s why they had to use the
Chinese cultural norms and traditions to conduct their
rulings,in doing so they themselves were eventually
melted into the Chinese culture and became part of it.
That’s the inner strength of The Chinese culture,the
Mongol one lacks it,therefore,it rose and fell,unable
to maintain its empire for long.In mordern history
China lost a lot to Russia and China should not lose
more,our nation needs a gravitational force to maxmize
her potencial in order to meet the challenge of the
outside world.If China breaks into small pieces, she
would lose her bargaining weight in dealing with the
western domination,the West are simply very eager to
see China breaking up.Look at the African continent,
there is no one single country which is strong enough
to counter a major western power,that’s the tragedy
for Africa, isn’t it?
Thirdly, let’s come to the big topic of human right.
Human right itself is a very beautiful thing and many
people love to talk about it,you also believe that
human right should take precedence over national integrity,arguably it’s a very lofty political point
to make,however,have you ever bothered yourself to
think deeply why the West are so fiercely defending
human right? and why they started to do it only in
recent decades,but not before? and when they defend
human right,in what way? when you start to study more
about the issue you can’t fail to notice it’s all so
dirty,hypocritic and disgusting !!! The West consider
human right vitally important because human right is
based on the ideal of individual liberty and christian
values,by promoting human right they are advancing their
own cultural values.When human right theory were
invented,most of the other cultures were either too
weak or still under the yoke of colonial governments,
they didn’t have a chance to participate in the very
construction and formulation of the theory,that’s why
the current version of the so-called universal human
right theory is mainly western-style human right.In the
West human right became an political focus when the
West has acomplished their cultural domination of the
world,to maintain this position they use this theory to
fight against other cultural and civilizational rivals.
Now the West aggressively impose their human right
criteria and political system on the rest of the world
without caring about whether these things are compatible
with the local conditions or not, the USA and Europe
have exported their democratic system to many developing
countries either by war or by other means of coercion,
honestly speaking some of them haven’t worked at all.
Different nations should have the right to persue their
own path to achieve democracy,find a model that suits
their countries the most and human right evaluation
should also take into consideration of the country’s
economic development level,citizens’educational level
and degree of political awareness and cultural practices,
to the West these factors do not count at all, they
just want to impose their own model and their own norms.
The West arrogantly believe that what is good for us
must be equally good for you, western values are
universal and all the others are just local and they are
to dictate norms,formulate agenda and the others should
follow suit,if they decline to do that, isolation and
demonization will follow.Human right and democracy has
become a tool for new form of cultural colonialism,just
coated with a beautiful name.Personally I am no enemy
to human right and democratic ideal,in 1989 I was among
the students in the Tiananmen Square fighting against
our government and the Western media was totally on
our side,many years later,after having lived in the
West, I feel actually we were then on their side and
served as a political paw for them.Human right has been
disdained and profained by the West, it has become part
of dirty politics,people use it as a declaration,as a
tool,as an excuse,as a cover,as a stick, as a make-up,
as a gun,as a political and cultural bomb for the West.
We Asians should have our own values promoted and we
should inject our cultural traditions into the current
Western-dominated international system and make it
fairer and more universal.
If you read world history,you will notice the most
unforgivable human right abuses have been committed
by the West:Two world wars were originated from Europe;
The genecide of the American Indians by the European
settlers;The slave trade and the enslavement of the
Black Africans by the European colonial powers,The
looting,exploitating and coloniazineg of the Third
world;The various bloody wars waged against the weak
and poor nations by the West.millions of white bones
of the innocent civilians killed in the various wars
waged by the British,the Germans,the French and the
Americans in the names of “Enlightenment” and “Human
right”.When the Sarcocys,the Browns,the Perloses,the
Bushes open their mouthes to pronounce the sacred word
Human Right,those dead civilians’weeping and grudging
souls would curse and scold and condemn.When the West
were savaging the world with their gunships and bombs
they didn’t talk about human right, now when the world
is dominated by them they start to talk about human
right:They condemn the human right problems of those
nations who reject the western domination,at the same
time they conceal the human right abuses of themselves
and their friends,human right issues are handled with
double standards and shameless hypocracy by the West.
I think they should be shamed of themselves and keep
their fithy big mouthes shut,if they have to speak,they
should be speaking about their human responsibilities
and try to right their wrongs first and repent.
China as a big and dynamic culture,of course should
contribute more to the advancement of human values but
she will not do this on the terms of the West,China has
every right to persue her own path to modernity,follow
her own development model,set her own agenda and priorities; China has the duty to defend her own
cultural traditions,define her own missions and position
in the world,we are not arrogant but we will not be
ordered around by the West.
The modern age is an age of fighting for definations,
those who have the power and might would be the ones
to define things, to dominate others, there is no fair
play and morality in it.In the dirty game of politics,
human right serves the national or supranational
interests.
When I read your response,I feel you might be a
decent and innocent personality,however,in politics
innocence would eventually be destroyed and decence
enbittered,that’s for sure.
ur chinese friend,
If you hope people understand what you say, you should avoid jargons like BSR and WSR.
Since China citizens do not have much experience about electing your president, I am not surprised by how you infer the thought of Taiwanese only from the result of our recent presidential election. When we voted for the president, Taiwan’s independence was not the only issue for us, nor did it be the only factor that determined who won the election. As a result, it would be improper to say we prefer independence or not only based on the result of this election. When Chinese have the chance to elect your own president and your own legislators, I think you will understand what I am talking about.
About China’s threat, most people know China has lots of missiles toward Taiwan. If this is not a threat, what do you consider a threat?
About Taiwan’s trading with China, if we can make money and feed ourselves, we do not care where the money comes from, as long as the money does not bite us. On the other hand, if China government threatens us by its economic force, we will think about if we should make China the number one trading partner.
History student,
I do not play politics, so I am happy to keep my “decent and innocent personality.” Here I will show how this choice works.
From your argument, although I do not identify myself as Chinese, I can put myself in your shoes and feel your pain caused by the western power. This empathy I have is the foundation of human right. Talking about human right is not a political game. Defending human right is a way of living.
If you are hurt because western power attacks your society and your culture, please think about Tibetans. Many of them are exiled to India and their society is resolving. Their culture is vanishing, too. Please do not say this image is built up by western media. My friends observed this phenomenon themselves.
Ifan,
First of all, you are right about the BSR WSR jargon. I will lay off these terms as they take too long to explain and probably won’t make much sense to anyone who is not into Taiwanese politics. However since you do understand what I am talking about, I would like to say that I am happy that despite the amount of discrimination which he had faced a WSR can win an election in Taiwan. Now, I do like your passion for elections and all, but I am also not surprised that you are dismissive towards ones such as myself by saying something like ‘you cannot vote therefore you don’t understand’. As a Chinese I often get this type of knee-jerk responses from Taiwan Independence people (let’s call them TIers). However, just because I say that I am Chinese doesn’t mean that I am a Chinese citizen. It also doesn’t mean that I have never participated in, or have no knowledge about a Democratic system. Would it surprise you that I volunteered on a political campaign before (yes, that would be in a democratic nation)? Have you? I do notice that you are at least trying to be reasonable, so instead of the usual belittling which you have for the Chinese people perhaps you can appeal a little more to the logic.
Anyhow, I am not sure why I am flawed to conclude that Taiwanese majority have chosen economic stability over Independence. Most of the political analysts from both local and “western” new sources before the elections have stated similar things along with predicting a large margin of victory for Ma. Elections are by far the best indicators of what the people want. Since the biggest differences between the two candidates are their positions on China (again, not just my words), why shouldn’t I say that Taiwanese people gave Ma the mandate to develop a warmer relationship with China over their dream of independence? If you have a different interpretation I would definitely like to know.
On the definition of a threat, it’s a matter of perspective really. I can say however that the stock market is probably the best indicator of how confident people are feeling about their current environment. People tend to make more serious decisions when their own money is involved. Shortly after election the Taiwan stock has skyrocketed. So all I can say is that at least the informed investors do not feel China poses a serious threat; otherwise they would of moved their money out of the market. Again, here if you have a different interpretation please share.
On trading policies, I am surprised that you do not consider China’s financial leverage a major threat to Taiwan. DDP has been warning about this for years. That’s what policy initiatives such as “Go South” (encouraging taiwan business to develop in Southeastern asia as opposed to China) is all about. I am pretty sure that majority of Taiwanese people are not naive to think that China won’t be using economics to leverage its relations with Taiwan.
I do notice that you haven’t responded at all towards my comments about past KMT crimes against Taiwanese people. This is rather odd since you were the one who brought up the 228 incident at the first place. It’s interesting that the KMT “mainlanders” (or WSRs as you probably would refer to them as) invaded, massacred thousands, and ruled over the local Taiwanese people for decades. Yet they ultimately won the election in a Democratic fashion which you are obviously very proud of. I know that most of the pro-Tibet types will deny this, but realistically I think Tibetans will eventually come to accept the ethnic Hans as well.
ok, guys. I think it’s all about the political interests between the communist party of china(CPC) and the western world. If taiwan stays neutral against both sides after its independence. Then the CPC will reluctantly to admitt it and keep relationships with taiwan. But like Japan, Philippines, and Korea, taiwan will stand for the amrican ally.
It’s a game. There’s no justice and rules in this game. The only thing that matters is how powerfull each side is.
To Ifan:
Talking about human right is part of the political game
whether you want to admit it or not.Your claim”defending
human right is a way of living” sounds both hollow and
self-righteous,everybody can say that,you should specify.
Following your arguement,you should defend the human
right of Taiwan abriginals in the same way as you defend
the Tibetan independence,how about the Catalonians in
Spain,Sardinians in Italy,Korsikas in France,Northern
Irish people in Britain,the Faroe Islandish in Denmark,
the American Indians in US,the Lappish people in Northern
Europe,the Eskimos in Canada,over 100 minorities in
Russia,the Kurdish in Irak,Syria,Iran,and Turkey.If you
have the Chinese blood in you,then you are in the similar
situation to the Australian whites who came to the land
of the Australian abriginals,in the end you will find that you are fighting against yourself.
“Please talk about the Tibetans” OK,let’s look at Tibet:
Firstly,Dalai Lama is not equal to Tibet.No doubt,Dalai
and his clique want Tibetan independence,although he say
he only wants bigger autonomy,he is lying and playing his
political game,from his speeches,interviews,writings and
various activities,everyone with brain can see his hidden
goal is independence,China is no fool and see through
his trick.Dalai Lama is not just a smiling-face Buhddist
monk,he is also a cunning and deceitful politician,by
winning the support of the West he talks about peace and
non-violence,at the same time he plots violent and bloody
riot.many people just see the soft side of him not the
cruel and vicious side of a politician. Dalai and his
followers just represent a fraction of Tibetans who
lost their previliged position when Tibet has been
transformed from a backward slavery society to a more
progressive and equal system.For decades,it’s the Han
Chinese who substantially has helped the local Tibetans
with massive economic aid and preferencial minority
policy,Tibetans do not have to observe the one couple
one child policy,Tibetans can be admitted to a university
by a much lower grade than the Han student.It’s slander
to claim that the economic and social development only
benefits the Han people. “Tibetan culture is vanishing”
is sheer propagandist rubbish.90% of the people who live
in Tibet are ethnic tibetans and other minorities.The
Chinese government has mobilized huge human and financial
resources to repair the Potala Palace,to restore many
other monastries,to build roads,hospitals,schools,to
help the locals to establish businesses,to train local
doctors. All these are delibrately ignored and distorted
by the West and the Dalai Lama clique.I don’t know who
are your “friends”.Do they know the past of Tibet and
the history of China and Tibet? To comment on Tibet as a
tourist is easy.you only need to pour out what your mind
has swallowed from the Western propagandist literature
and pro-Dalai lama stuff,then the job is done.If you
really care about human right, you should be defending
the right of those innocent civilians burned,stabbed,
looted and killed by the mobs during the riot,you should
also defend the minorities living under the yoke of
many western kingdoms and republics and help them to
become independent first.
ur chinese friend,
Your theory is, Mr. Ma and KMT are equal to “uniting with China” and “killing many Taiwanese before.” If they won the election, Taiwanese chose pro-China and killers.
However, most Taiwanese believe Mr. Ma won the election because Mr. Chen’s government did not work efficiently at least on the media. The change of stoke market is based on the same reason. I guess Mr. Ma himself cannot agree with your over-simplification, either.
What you tried to infer tells us that even you joined a political campaign, you still have blindspot when you try to describe how a democracy system works.
About trading with China, I said “as long as the money does not bite us.” We try to find a balance between feeding and defending ourselves. Many countries do business with China although the factories in China pollute our environment a lot, and I believe all of us are trying to find the balance.
By the way, I think this GVO article is about Tibet. If you want to discuss the problems between Taiwan and China or the presidential election in Taiwan, I recommend you to find a proper online forum to post your opinions.
History student,
Maybe you study history, but other people also study history–my friends also study history of China and Tibet. You may study history, but did you talk with Tibetans in Tibet or exiled before? Can you answer the question that why so many Tibetans are exiled?
I am not Dalai Lama. But if what you said is true, it seems he wins the game and China lost the game this time, no matter you like the result or not.
By the way, since you do not know me, how can you say my “defending human right” is hollow? Talking here is easy, did you do anything in addition to criticizing western media?
To Ifan:You friends study history of China and Tibet is not
the same as you study history,I am here arguing with you,
not your friends.Yes,I have talked with Tibetans many
times when I was in China and in the west I have also
listened to Dalai Lama’s speeches and read some of his
books.You ask “Why so many Tibetans are exiled?” Well,
hardly as many as the Guomindang,who lost the civil war
in mainland and escaped to Taiwan.Dalai went to exile
because he lost in his fight in 1959 and lost his mandate
in Tibet.I know you are not Dalai Lama,if you were,you
would be plotting further violent riots against China.
Dalai lama hasn’t won the game,although people like you
might wish so,actually has become a lame duck,desperate
to achieve his goal when he feel his days are numbered.
I say your claim “Defending human right is a way of
living” is hollow because your did not specify whose
human right you want to defend,that’s why I enlisted
the regions around the globe,whose problems are similar
to the Tibetan issue.Yes,talking here might be easy
especially for those who make some seemingly lofty and
righteous statements but couldn’t provide any viable
arguement to back up.Yes,I do other things in addition
to writting here, I have a good regular job in the west
and lead a decent life,but that does not prevent me
from loving my motherland and defending my ancestors.
I don’t know who you are,Do you do anything except
singing the praise of western media who have been
delibrately lying about China and the Tibetan riot ?
this report is full of craps!
it makes me feel sad if taiwan people support tibet independence.
ifan:
我是留言的第二位.看了我可爱的同胞们的留言,深感祖国之幸运.我也知道大家是根本无法说服你的.但我还是得纠正你的一个big mistake, that is 达赖喇嘛从51年开始一直和班蝉喇嘛是西藏的藏传佛教领导者,53年到北京开会后回到西藏还写了,speaking要将西藏建设成为象祖国内陆一样水平的国家.一直都很好.直到56年,他到印度出席”释迦牟尼”诞辰,他的几个哥哥将他围住,向他灌输”***思想”(当然有美国的介入呢),他很犹豫,后来才有的59年叛乱.叛乱失败后逃到了印度.我看了你的留言,发现你根本就不知道这回事,说什么”I know there is an autonomic government in Tibet, but why does Dalai Lama not have equal opportunity to be the leader of this autonomic government? Moreover, if China government is so kind to Tibetans, why do many Tibetans need to stay in India? “Many of them are exiled to India and their society is resolving. Their culture is vanishing, too.” (不是只有达赖喇嘛,还有班蝉喇嘛呢.我们敬爱的十世班蝉去世已经有一段时间呢,十一世班蝉正在长大)
“I have been to XingJang and my friends have been to Tibet, and our observation agrees with the statement that the original residents in these areas (Muslims in XingJang and Tibetans) are suppressed and invaded by Han people (with economic force and culture). “说什么呢!你不要在那挑拨民族仇恨,我们和谐着呢.你跟我说课本上的东西不是”golden rule”,至少人们在行为时都会按着被教会的去做.就象西方国家和你台湾的领导教会你们中国是个”邪恶的国家”.
by the way,你不要一个劲地说”中国的人权有多差”,我看比你们台湾好,至少我们领导主要都在探讨”怎样改善民生问题”.而不是象你们的”两个党派在台上大打出手,被美国媒体感叹—–世间之事真是无其不有.”我说,老兄,与其有那个闲工夫打”口水仗”,不如想想怎样提高”老百姓”的生活水平吧.
怎么样,大陆的女孩子知识面丰富吧,(故意气你的),因为知道你们台湾的电视节目热衷探讨”明星的八卦新闻”.感觉精神世界很空虚.
All the best!
坏了,坏了,应该检查的:从北京回来后写了”毛主席颂”,把毛主席比作太阳,还有把西藏建设成为想内陆一样富裕的”地区”.同胞们,原谅我的大错误.
啊,我应该检查一下的:达赖从北京回来后,写了”毛主席颂”,把毛主席比作太阳,永放光芒(不要恶心,这的确是他写的).
同胞们,原谅我将”把西藏建设成象内陆一样水平的地区”,写成了”国家”呢,真是该打.
Dear friends,
Talking about human right, a government with fresh blood of its own people is definitely the one who has least human right. How do we help to defend the human right as a foreigner? We talk about it, we spread the news, and we discuss about boycott. How many countries criticize the oppression in Tibet? Dalai Lama may not win the position to govern Tibet, but he definitely wins our support.
Talking about Taiwan’s human right, we may not have the best record, but we are at least willing to face the truth and make a change. Can China government do this? There is speech freedom in Taiwan, can China government tolerate that? I heard Hu-Jia was sentenced (http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/04/02/china-hu-jia-to-be-sentenced-today/). What do you think about it? There are legislators elected by Taiwanese citizens. They argue because they represent different groups of citizens in Taiwan. We solve the conflicts by reasoning, not by military oppression. Taiwanese saw our own people blooding before, and we find a way to prevent the tragedy to happen again. What do the Chinese in China (or not), leading a decent life (or not), think? Do you think China government finds the best way to solve the conflicts in China–by military oppression?
By the way, History student, I am impressed by how you defend human right–you criticize western media, you live in west, and you lead a decent life. I guess you do defend your own human right and defend the ideology built by China government.
wo,气死人呢.我们的军队哪里在压迫,我们大陆的人都没有说压迫,你有什么资格说压迫.我们人民群众有困难时,总是广大官兵及时出现,看到了官兵,我们人民群众就跟吃了”定心丸”了一样.98年抗洪,堤坝溃堤,要不是广大官兵跳进洪水筑成”钢铁长城”,都不知道会淹死多少人.
今年雪灾,车队堵在公路上,广大官兵在路边搭起帐篷,为受冻的司机们送上”热腾腾”的饭菜.
我跟你说我们大陆的人权好着呢.处处透着”温暖”.”全国一盘棋,团结着呢”.你有什么资格嘀咕.
西方敌视中国的”马克思主义”,从建国开始就一直没断过.也不管”马克思主义”是不是好.你知道”马歇尔计划”吗?美国是怎么对付俄罗斯的?
以上含诋毁成分的说得简直就是p话连篇，请问编辑这些假话的人只是想为了反映自己有多可怜么？在不懂事实的人来说，他们也许都会相信这些，因为这些人都是无知的人。不要表面听到的就信以为真，必须要做到眼见为实ok!对于天安门暴乱事件来说，事实的原委并不是如那些胡乱的编辑者所说的那样，什么残杀他们，严重镇压他们，简直就是撒谎，说的也太夸张了吧..明摆着是那些无知的搞破坏分子想抹黑中国ok,我想请问大家，如果你家一直安静平和可突然有一天，你的亲戚来到你家里无理取闹要死要活的，你难道会坐视不理么，我看没有任何一个人会放着什么也不管吧!只是因为那些暴民过于张狂和蛮横，所以中国才采取一些法律上的规则去平息这一切而已，其余的夸张成分纯属伪造和虚假编辑，亲爱的中国同胞们，我们要团结阿 别再搞内讧了，这样只是正好如了部分始作俑者的意，中国可以说是最和平的国家了，当年多少邻国受过中国的恩惠，例如当年越南被别国侵略，中国可帮了他们不少吧，可到头来他们又回馈了中国什么，只是在中国需要他们帮助的时候，他们却把物价提高了。中国从来没有制造过任何的战争，中国之所以有今天的强大就因为人民团结，至于那些破坏分子只是不知道受了谁的恩惠才故意制造一连串的假象来诋毁中国，他们的行为真的好可耻，万人唾弃，他们会遭报应的。
我是一个西藏人，对于一些诋毁中国的看法我不大赞同！我觉得我们西藏人的生活不错的，中国大陆也对我们很照顾，一些不雅的videos 和photos ，大部分都是伪造的，都含有剪切成分，他们这么做的原因也只是为了让自己得到好处，我认为他们太自私了，同样都是中国同胞为什么偏偏要搞破裂呢？部分西藏人民对于这次奥运的搞破坏原因只有一个，他们收了某人的好处，为了不让中国好过，他们还特地收买了很多洋人一起乔装来破坏奥运会，我在西藏所听到的看到的甚至连我自己经历到的，某些虚伪的人们总在暗地里悄悄的计划着怎样去破坏和毁谤中国大陆！
I don’t like some of the Taiwanese, the same as some of the Hongkong people. I don’t know why the government always want to get them united. Thoese people are not polite, they are over proud, opinionated, prejudice. They consider themselves more superior and more advantage.
About 6 years ago, I got to know one supplier from Hongkong for printing, their facotry is located in China. At every dinner we had with the European clients, the Hongkong supplier would say badthings about China. If the badthing is right, then I could accept it. But all he said is nonsense. He said :”China will break very soon, in 1989, I was working in Huangpu(in Guangzhou) for a Japanese company, in June I saw many tanks, the soldiers killed the comman people.”
Then I asked him if he had witnessed the soldiers killed the common people. He said I saw many tanks. He kept telling his imagined story to my European clients for 6 years, fortunately China still did not break. His naiveness remind me of one joke:
One lady walked towards the lake with a fishing rod. One police came and took her fishing rod away, and said:”it is not allowed to fish here”. The lady said:”I did not fish here, how could you proove that I did fish?” The police said:”The proof is that you are equipped wit the tool to fish.” Then the lady shouted loudly:”the police is to rape me, help!” The police was angry and said:”I am not interested in you, why did you say that?” The lady said:”because you are equipped with the tool to rape me.”
Keep imaginating and be CNN.
The bible said don’t tell a lie, don’t make fake proof, don’t judge the others. But you did.I think we need to pray for you.
My dear chinese friends,
It’s very nice of you to point out there must be proof to say something. We all know there were Tibeten protesters, but how can you prove some of them were burning houses and killing people?
This kind of conflict between different groups of people needs independent investigation, especially when your government asked all foreigners to leave when their military came to Tibet.
You may hear a chinese proverb: neither adjust your shoe in a melon field，nor adjust your hat under a plum tree–because people may think you are stealing a melon or a plum.
I understand your angry toward people who said there was military oppression, especially when there was no foreign reporter allowed to stay. If you want to fight for the honor of your country, I recommend you to urge your government to allow some distinguished figures to do independent investigation of this incident.
Dear Ifan,
If you are innocent, why not adjust your unconfortable shoes? If you don’t, it could reflect: 1,you care too much about what the other would say about you then you would be too tired to live. 2,you doubt yourself too. In China there is another saying: if you have this thinking you would doubt the same of the others.(心有之,反疑心)
When the conflict happened, the government need to protect all the people from being hurt, including the foreigners. When you say the so-call independent investigation, I would like to show you one website which was set up by some Chinese students to expose how the western medie to make fake news: http://www.anti-cnn.com. What is the independent news for since it is not independent? Besides, you also could find how the rob of Tibet killed and burnt the common Chinese from this website anti-cnn.
I would like to tell you more, in June of 1989, I kept watching the Hongkong TV-TBV and ATV for Tiananmen event. All Hongkon TV said bloody oppression by the militory, but NEVER a picture or episode could show and proove that, we could only hear the voice from the report and the Beijing streets. Everybody outside China said it is bloody oppression, but I never saw a picture of the bloody. Instead my husband and some of my friend told me that NO oppression occured in Tiananmen square, the tank and the soldiers were only to threaten the students, as my husband was one of the student and he was in grade one in university. Taiwan bought so many weapons from US, do you think it was already used to shoot our Chinese people? No, maybe it is just for show to keep the balance, maybe not yet.
Regarding the Tainanmen event or the Tibet riot, if you did not witness or don’t have any proof, do you think you could judge it as a bloody oppression? No, you are not God.
I believe every media would lead the readers or aundiences, to certain degree the media would wash the readers and audoiences brain. I don’t like the Chinese media, as they always tell the good news and keep the people from the bad news by closing the news, just in order to make the people to be satisfied with their lives. But the western media is more creative and imaginative, they lie and could creat something from nothing to arose unnecessary anger/fighting/riot on purpose by their imagination. The Chinese media don’t give us a full picture, but the western one also give us a part of the picture, and the fake one.
The Chinsee government close the news which is bad to them, but they don’t lie as the western ones do. I would say that the Chinese one is stupid, but the western one is evil.
Sue,
I pity you, because you believe your government does not lie to you. If it can block the news, it can lie.
I pity you, because you do not believe there is justice, and you do not believe there is investigation that can bring the truth to all of us.
I pity you, because while so many people doubt what have happened in Tibet, what you can do is criticizing others instead of opening a window for communication.
不必跟某些台湾的人争论西藏问题。
做为中华民国的国民，民国宪法内容就是保持民国的领土完整（包括西藏）。所以跟这帮台独人士交锋，说根本没用。猪脑！
美国经历911把美国人的爱国意识凝聚，堂堂民国国民却在西方挑拨中国内乱这么明摆着的事情党中分不清方向，自己也是汉族，无辜汉族被伤、被烧死得不到任何怜悯，台湾岛的媒体（包括中央社）却跟着西方鬼子的叫嚷声谴责大陆镇压。
他妈的什么是镇压？军队在哪儿？拉萨那么多人可以用手机等各种方式传递出来“军队镇压”的照片和录像短片，放出来！
多么可怜的无辜的拉萨市民（包括藏族市民）被伤到这种地步，竟然无人提及，还报道世界上去追求所谓的民主自由。这世界上有真正的民主和自由吗！
想想死去的人、受伤的人，想想特殊的时候发生特殊的事，难道是寺庙的喇嘛憋屈到这几天才发泄，在看看之前几天印度境内的异动，你告诉全世界这是拉萨自己的行动？与外面无关？放屁！
请求帮助，哪位高手把下面的内容翻译成英文？
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
一位西藏读书人在某讨论区的发言集，原文转录如下
我是藏南波密的门巴族，现在在西南民族学院读书，境外的藏独分子妄想复辟，妄想回来当农奴主，做他的大梦吧，不要说共产党，就是我们也会拿起枪和他们干。大家要警惕，听我高中同学说，藏独用钱在波密扎木中学招募藏族高中生去境外读军校。这次拉萨暴动波密也有几个平时偷鸡摸狗地痞流氓去了拉萨，他们几个初中的时候经常打架，欺压同学。没想到小混混聚集在一起了，胆子还大了不少，估计是拿了钱干的。希望政府能去查一查，藏独真可笑，越是这些人渣跟着他们，他们越是臭名远扬。
全国同胞们放心，现在藏独很少，只有黄教那些神经病里有些喇嘛喜欢用香火钱来哄骗农民，想我们这些上大学的，根本不想理他们。现在西藏生活这么好了，境外那几个神经病回来只有挨打，要他们真回来，我第一个回藏南搞死他们。
境外那些藏独，都是当年逃过去的农奴主的后代，我们已经翻身当主人了，他们只能在境外当狗，客死他乡，肯定不平衡。旧西藏才是世界上侵犯人权最为严重的地方，我会开帖子另外说的。
只是有个小小的要求，政府执法的时候要强硬点，达赖其实已经被藏青会架空，他根本没什么发言权。
今天黄教的喇嘛向媒体哭诉“不自由”。大昭寺是黄教达赖祭法的地方，那些黄教喇嘛都信奉达赖，去那采访，不是神经病吗，肯定拥护达赖啊。去色拉寺、甘丹寺、哲蚌寺，还有更多的喇嘛，这些都是黄教的地盘。如果去小昭寺采访，肯定哭诉黄教暴徒怎么施暴的。
我真觉得可笑，黄教喇嘛越闹，中央就对他越好，像我们这些不闹事的藏族人，中央政府就不在意。
我是藏南门巴族，政府能不能武装我们，让我们以志愿军的形式越境去印度端掉藏独老巢，我有些同学在那边，熟悉路径。这帮农奴主的后代越来越嚣张了，要再不出来，他们又要回来奴役我们了！
达赖最可笑，西藏又不是他黄教一家的，就是独立了，西藏也是内战不断。
就是黄教也分达赖和班禅，黄教有两大活佛转世系统，不过我们门巴不信这个，我们是原始宗教，我说了就是独立了也是内战不断，黄教才多少人嘛？他们只能代表后藏，青宁的农户。
你是不知道内情，那帮所谓的打人藏独相当于内地的地痞流氓，谁给钱就帮谁。至于那些打人的喇嘛是因为那几个寺庙都是黄教的信达赖，黄教内部信班禅的就没事。
我知道汉人的心思，我在成都，前几天我坐公交车，因为我是西藏人，我坐的位置居然没人和我一起坐，那些人宁愿站着，也不坐我旁边，其实我们都是被藏青会连累的。
达赖现在已经被藏青会架空，他管不了在国外出生长大的藏独二代，就算他想和中央政府谈，藏青会也不会让他谈。藏青会从小被洗脑，他们有时候潜回西藏看到到处都是汉字、汉人，藏民生活也越来越好，他们就绝望，因为他们被灌输这一切本来都是他们的，我们只不过是农奴，他们的奴役的商品而已。现实确是他们只能龟缩在印度的山区，像野骆驼一样偷生，老死。
中央政府最好放弃和谈，我知道藏青会那批人是不会和中央政府和谈的，他们的胃口大的很，川西，甘南，青海，云南他们都想吃，真要这批农奴主的后代回来，西藏各族人民将暗无天日。西藏也会内战不断。不必太在乎外国人的感受，多关心点本国人的利益。
ifan,
See, you started to show your high position, just behaving like you are at so high position and we are not. You pity me? I pity you. You think you are right, so you pity the different? You judged again as you were God. Your window of communication was closed.
I pity you, as you could not find the proof but I could.
I pity you, because you said because I believe my government does not lie to me. I tell you what I believe, I believe the proof and the truth, instead of imaganation. I would not believe any government or media when I found the proof that they lie. Can you? No. But you only could do and think so “if it can block the news it can lie” by your imagination and judgement.
I pity you, because you judged again that I do not believe there I justice. Again, you imagine again to do judgement. Did I say that or just you said that?
I pity you, although finally you said only so many people doubt what had happened in Tibet instead of the previous so-called oppression, I still pity you. Because you thought what I said is criticing others instead of opening a window for communication. Please check all my talking, all is about what I heard and what I saw and what I thought. The window is big open for communication. If what I said was not right, please correct it with reasons and proofs instead of by judging.
However, before you could say oppression, now you only could say doubt. Good step and good change.
Finally, please read New Testament of the bible: Mattew 7 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged. and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.”
Sue,
You also believe what you heard as others, but you try to get your high position from the Bible. I want to ask you, why don’t you believe in justice, which is valued high in the Bible? When there is lots of proof that there was military oppression in Tienanmen, bloody oppression, you said you did not believe there was. For you, it seems everything is imagination, only what china government said is bible.
I opened a window for communication by suggesting an independent investigation, and you closed it by saying everyone should believe what china government declare. How rude is it! I recommend you to consider my suggestion because making conflicts is no good to anyone.
Ifan,
I don’t know why you are so good at judging.
1, When did I ever say I don’t trust justice? Only YOU said it by your judging and imagination. Please check this event completely. You and the western media are very welcomed to investiation. Now already some wetern media had been there. Some of my friends had driven to Tibet as well. Did you go to investigate? Please go and do the investigation instead of criticing the window is closed. If you don’t have the proof, and you don’t plan to go for investigation, then please shut up! If you found the Chinese media lied about the tibet riot, please tell me by providing the proof!!!!!Unfornatly, I found the western media lied. Could you?!!!
2, Regarding the Tiananmen event, I already told you what I had seen from Hongkong TV and what I had heard from my friends. You said lots of proof, then please provide them instead of making noices!!!
3. You said I said what our government said is the bible, please quote my words to proove that. What understanding level you have!
4. I get the high position from the bible? Hehe, please pray to God if I did so, or just the words that I taken from the bible just fit you.
5. How rude you are to say that “you closed it by saying everyone should believe what china government declare” Please quote my original words to proove your imagination. Please.
Before the talks I already knew it would be useless to communicate, as nobody could convince others. However, I just would like provide the broader view from my side to you and then post my comments. At the beginning I supposed there would a reasonal and objectively communication as you were still polite and educated. However, it came out that it is the same as the rude taiwanese. No interest to talk to you anymore, tell you my window is finally closed now. Please go ahead to enjoying your imagination and strong sense of superior. Good bye.
看了楼上诋毁中国政府的言论，想说几句：
1、拜托你造假也专业点好不？说北京人不知道西藏发生的事，你讲了半天却全是胡扯，很多常识性问题都不懂就来骗人啊…尤其是关于青藏铁路那部分，我在这就不揭你的皮了，自己查去…还感同身受…笑翻了…
2、关于用汉字教学问题，造谣请查证一下再说啊，现在藏区学校都是汉藏并行，但藏文中没有现代词语和科技词语，所以再进一步的教育必须用汉字来进行，否则就是一台普通电器买回来都没法使用-说明书根本翻译不了藏文，没那些词汇….
3、所谓你的藏族朋友，估计是没去过西藏的，可能是印度长大的吧…要不就是捏造的，你骗骗不知情的人也罢了，遇到对西藏稍有了解的人就SB了…
4、看来不造谣你总是不爽的，如果确实要靠造谣或骂中共你才爽，那就随便吧….
说到台湾义工，确实值得大陆人尊重和学习
但说到64，希望还是不要在这造谣了，以讹传讹都传成啥样子了….
还有什么“感同身受”的那些人，就不要再自做多情了，你们的内心是永远不会也无法理解大陆当时人们的内心的心理结构和想法的，差距太大了….
很多事情不是现场参与也不要瞎猜测了，另外有的人说的和他想的以及实际发生的未必是一致的，64在可期望的时间内应该会解密的，那时候一切会大白于天下的，要说平反，我只有一句话：做梦！罪犯是不可能平反的！
台湾的很多义工是值得尊重和学习的
但照片中的人的行为是很无聊且无耻的
很多台湾人的脑袋是养鱼的，永远也无法理解大陆发生的一些事情的…
There is only independent investigation providing a bridge between China government and other Tibet supporters. We can not take what China government claimed without question, and we want to learn the truth.
“The only reason people want to be masters of the future is to change the past.” (Laughter, 22) We will keep working on finding the truth, because this is the only way to have a truly peaceful and harmonic society.
Ifan
我想你说的这些台湾年轻人口头上自称 “中华民国”, 实际上已经没有国家了. 理由如下:
1. 中华民国国父孙中山先生的三民主义是什么? 民族, 民主, 民生. 你们应该回到老家问问那些曾生活在日本占领下, 被强迫学日语的老人, 什么叫 “民族”?
2. 这个所谓的 “free Tibet” 运动你们以为是 “民主”运动吗? 如果你们这么认为的话, 那你们的见识就不如中国的其他同龄人了. 请看OCT,2,1998 NEW YORK TIMES 上的一篇文章:
World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A.
“The Dalai Lama’s administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960’s from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000. “
其实只要稍微想一下, 他们搞这个运动需要庞大的费用, 是从哪里来的呢? 美国为什么要支持它呢?
3. 美国和台湾的关系难道不也是一个道理吗? 在台湾被作为反共前沿POST之前, 美国为台湾老百姓用过一分钱吗? 美国真是为了 “民主” 在 “帮助” 台湾人吗?
4. “民主”又超政治的吗? 就像你说 “奥运会” 是不是超政治的呢? 如果是, 为什么DALAI LAMA 要破坏它呢? 这证明了奥运会不是超政治的. 既然不是, 那就好好想想国父的话.
5. 台湾的朋友们总以为大陆人都生活在强权下, 对外界情况一无所知. 其实, INTERNET早已带来了深刻的变化. 大陆的年轻人对台湾的了解也许远比你们对我们的了解多得多. 举例来说, 很多人都关注了你们的大选, 并进行思考, 讨论.
6. 很久以来, 中国政府已经结束了冷战时期的宣传站, 对国民党在历史中的地位给予公正的评价. 像我是70年代出生的人, 都已经对台湾人没有偏见. 可是我发现很多台湾朋友还是冷战思维, 对大陆还称 “共匪”, 就连这次的候选人谢长廷先生都多次辱骂大陆人. 这难道不是媒体导向的结果吗?
7. 所以, 我们普通老百姓, 要是不思考, 不沟通, 那我们就会被送上战场. 为什么我们要断送自己宝贵的生命呢?
8. 希望台湾的朋友们要三思而后行. 最后借用一句老话: “ 诸葛一生为谨慎, 吕端大事不糊涂.”
There is something less to the arguments of both sides, but the argument on the Chinese side is weaker. Tibet was not “Chinese” until Mao Zedong’s armies marched in and made it so.
Let’s first analyze similarities between the Nazis and the CCP.
1) Nazis were national socialists - CCP is a national socialist.
2) Nazis considered Germans to be the master race - CCP considers Han Chinese to be the master Race.
3) Nazi torch bearers were athletic, strong examples of the “master race” - CCP torch bearers are athletic, strong examples of the “master race”.
4) Nazis glorified the Olympic flame with a mythical, pagan, semi-spiritual status - CCP glorifies the Olympic flame with a mythical, pagan, semi-spiritual status. The men in blue suits are called “The Olympic Holy Flame Protection Unit” and one of them watches the flame while others sleep.
5) Nazis used the games to promote national socialism - CCP uses the games to promote national socialism.
6) Nazi torch bearers loved the Fatherland and gave their life if necessary for the Fuhrer - CCP torch bearers must love the Motherland and give their life if necessary for the CCP.
7) Nazi oath of allegience is to the Fuhrer and to acknowledge The Fuhrer as the savior of Germany - The Chinese oath of allegience is to the CCP and to acknowledge the CCP head as a “Living Buddha”.
8) Nazis had live shooting ranges where they would hunt down civilians and kill them as practice for troops - Chinese have live shooting ranges where they would hunt down civilians and kill them as practice for troops.
9) The Nazi torch bearers actually went back and invaded every country they went through even murdering the gypsies in Bulgaria - The Chinese have already invaded Tibet and other areas and murdered millions of people.
10) The Nazi torch bearers were fanatical national socialists - The Chinese torch bearers were fanatical national socialists.
11) Nazis performed medical experiments and murdered prisoners for medical research and body parts - Chinese murder prisoners to order for body parts and medical research.
The CCP has a clear agenda - “expansionism” at all costs under the guise of peaceful liberation. Once a territory is gone, it’s gone. There will be 1.3 billion brainwashed fools who will come here and defend war crimes of the CCP and brag about Xinhua as free press. If the West remains complacent, South-East, Australia, New Zealand, Pacific would be occupied or rather “liberated” territories in a few decades. Don’t come back and ask us “Why they hated China” or all we had to do is give the Chinese more time to think about the nicety of Western Liberalism.
China’s human rights abuses are “staggering”: the detention of hundreds of thousands of people, including political activists, for “reeducation” programs, and forced labor camps; and the liberal use of the death penalty in China — including for political prisoners — which makes China the site of 8 of every 10 government administered executions carried out in the world!
CCP is full of deceit and has figured out how to play the West. They can’t be trusted at all and they have a bag full of tricks to fool not only Tibetans but the whole world with a state-controlled press. The best solution is a free Tibet. There is no doubt that a sovereign Tibet would be a savior state not only for Tibetans but for all ethnic groups of China who have nowhere to go if they disagree with the CCP. A free Tibet would be such a free democratic heaven and a safe haven.
China cannot be defined in a simple language. Its national statement contains elements of ultranationalism, chauvinism and aggressive expansionism. It is one of the most dangerous nations on the face of our planet. Its enormous size is largely owed to the history of brutal conquests of its neighbors’ territories. Its territorial appetites are reminiscent of Hitler’s imperialistic ambitions.
The unified message of the democratic bloc should be a strong encouragement of a process of decentralization and liberalization of China. Powerful support should be given to the movements within, toward autonomy of parts of China, populated by a majority of non-Chinese such as occupied Mongolia, the Turkmen region and Tibet.
I, also, feel that boycott of the Olympiad would not go far enough. There has to be an organized movement toward sanctions of Chinese exports and economy. Maybe that would send a strong message to Chinese that today’s world would not tolerate revival of Hitlerism.
就问”民主，智慧，博爱“的某岛居民一句话，抵制奥运会，抵制与中共的经贸交往，为何让马阴九这样的软蛋上台，哈哈哈，应该迅速独立才是呀！你们独立，我们攻打，奥运会就没啦，这不就成全了”抵制奥运会“的目标了吗？！
说中共崇尚汉民族优等？那为什么视之为一生最为重要的高考少数民族学生加分20呢？一分压死1操场的考生知道不？20分……无知呀，还是洗洗睡吧，开个小论坛骂骂，多亏火炬没去宝岛呀，这素质比巴黎人差不了哪去….
one can see poster has researched the US and other western countries fear of a rising China and their methods to contain it. Actually in the past US is also involved in the picking out of native americans, the real owner of the US lands. US invaded iraq bypassing the UN saying wmd there, trained osama and others to shadowbox with erstwhile USSR in afghanistan, invaded afghanistan as they turned on their mentors, military presence in kuwait, saudi arabia, irag, south korea, japan, etc. If one talk about history then a lot of regions now a part of nations were once independent kingdoms so can they now claim independence now? why don’t the US give the remaining native americans a country of their own? Do the white americans really treat the colored people there with equal respect? tell me those people living there…
So far, i have only seen US attacking other countries for one reason or the other in different corners of the globe..but I haven’t seen China actually having military presence in different corners of the world..yes they have invaded tibet and india..but didnt the US has a hand in the tibet uprising? sowing the seeds of discontent..and india was potentially invaded not because of border issues which is the obvious one but it could be because of india giving asylum to the tibetans on the instigation of the US…you are having the same traits that you describe China as having..it reeks of desperation to contain the inevitable rise of China…if china do indeed breakup and get weakened…then india will be the next target in 20-30 years time…a new plan will be incubated…
now i know why iran will be desperate to have a nuclear device..without it..they will be like iraq is now…
the US tried to control the world in a beautiful way using their propaganda machinery the same device that people are saying chinese govt is using..the thing is the chinese govt..is following the US examples of using media and communication..the difference is US is already master in these areas and China is not that’s why people are taking advantage of the imperfections..i remember the respected president george w bush declared ..”either you are with us or against us” thats from a democratic head..a nation you can almost called the pioneer of democracy and capitalism…in the distant future the power center will shift to asia..between china and india…and the western world has to lived with it whether they like it or not…obviously they dont like it after being the dominating force for decades…
Taiwan is supported by the US…and do you think it would have reached the position it is in right now without the US support…but the previous leaders do not want independence but to fight back the mainland…it is not surprising to see current taiwanese showing support to the tibet cause…i remember one of my chinese friends said when he went there to study…some of his chinese classmates said they are not chinese but taiwanese…no he didnt tell them taiwanese is a subset of chinese ..just as tibetan is a subset of chinese currently…
if the US took the first step in liberating those states which wanted independence or any ethic groups which wanted to have a separate state or nation allowing them independence…then i think that it would have a better and more profound effect on the china :-)
nations should be thinking how to improve the world..the food…curing diseases…prepare for extraterrestrial threats..etc to preserve human beings..
Ping,
Dalai Lama said they received financial support from C.I.A in “1960.” What’s the point to review this old news? By the way, there are many China’s allies still receiving financial support from China, do you think China has any conspiracy?
vikash,
If China only tries its best to not be the worst one, it can NEVER be a great country. Maybe US’s army invades Iraq, its people can FREELY discuss what’s wrong with that decision. Since Hu-Jia was just sentenced, I do not expect anyone to claim there is free speech in China. By the way, US works very hard on improving the world, the food, and curing diseases.
ifan
thanks for your response. there’s no doubt US has great achievemnts in many fields that china should learn and improve. but the isse here is of “Tibet”, right? Who is funding this campaign and why? this news from Germany may give you some idea:
http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56147 German-Foreign-policy
@ifan
I assume you must be a person who love peace, so allow me to recommed you another article from antiwar.com
“Why They Hate China
Well, you have to hate someone… ”
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12585
你根本不了解西藏问题 甚至不清楚自己的历史
西藏闹独立是因