Last week's Olympics “angel” Jin Jing is on the traitor [zh] list now, after she spoke out against the upcoming nation-wide anti-Carrefour [zh] protests set for May 1 [zh].
People can't wait [update: yeah, it's totally on now] to get out to those, it seems, just like Chinese hackers, having already gotten into Carrefour.com.cn, weren't willing to wait until the 19th for the planned CNN.com DDOS attack to begin, all this against the backdrop of millions of netizens finding ways to display their patriotism.
As if that weren't enough, Jack Cafferty's remarks even got the central government on the anti-CNN bandwagon.
So now Saturday is looking like Chinese anti-CNN day in a number of different places [zh] around the world [zh]
At least one related post at China.com has over 27,000 comments over nearly 500 pages. As Heike The Dark Visitor blogger points out, the April 19 protests will mostly be held in western Europe:
1. 1500-1800hrs, 19 April 2008, at the Bundestag, Platz der Republik, Berlin
2. 1300-1500hrs, 19 April 2008, two routes (from Talie – Hotel de Ville – Bastille) or (Republique – Bastille – Hotel de Ville –Bastille, Paris
3. 1100-1500hrs, 19 April 2008, Downing Street outside of Whitehall, England
4. (No time given) 19 April 2008, Amsterdam, HollandThe protests appear to be well organized, with the coordination of donations, banners, flags, T-shirts…etc. While it is of course impossible to tell how widespread the demonstrations will be, an online keyword search, using Chinese, did produce several hundred hits.
One link Heike provides emphasizes that the protesters are furious and promising demonstrations that will flood Europe in a sea of red flags:
On April 18, one of the earlier members of anti-CNN.com posted the address and fax number for CNN's office in Beijing, along with a sample letter for anyone to send:
致美国有线电视新闻网负责人：
美国东部时间4月9日晚6点，贵台主持人Jack Cafferty 在“时事观察室”节目中发表了侮辱全体中国人的种族歧视言论，令人甚感震惊。他说：“他们（中国人）基本上还是五十年来的那群恶棍和暴徒。”
全世界华人充分理解贵国一贯秉持的言论自由原则，并尊重Jack Cafferty的政治立场，但是作为一个公众人物，一个新闻从业者，Jack Cafferty所说的已经完全超越了言论自由的底线，相信任何一个有尊严的华人都不会接受这种对于华人整个族裔的谩骂。
At 6pm EST on the evening of April 9, your network's anchorperson Jack Cafferty, made racist remarks on the program The Situation Room that insulted and shocked the entirety of the Chinese people. He said, “(the Chinese) they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years.”
The Chinese people of the world fully understand that your country has always upheld the principle of free speech, and respect Jack Cafferty's political stance, but as a public persona and a news professional, what Jack Cafferty said has gone way beyond the line of freedom of speech, and [we] believe that any respectable Chinese person cannot accept this kind of invective towards the entire Chinese race.
贵台稍候在15日发表的简短声明中辩解称Jack Cafferty所说的恶棍暴徒指的是中国政府，这样避重就轻没有诚意的道歉声明更是令人难以接受。首先，在Jack Cafferty的言论中，他反复多次说到中国，中国人，丝毫没有提到中国政府的地方；再者，Jack Cafferty在说到“恶棍”与“暴徒”时，使用的是复数，其意思非常明确，他口中的“他们”指的就是整个华人族群；最后，贵台的声明把矛头转向中国政府，这样牵强的强辩实际上是对中华民族的二度伤害！难道攻击一个国家的政府就不会伤害该国人民的感情了吗？
为此我致函向CNN以及Jack Cafferty提出严正抗议和谴责！
中国向世界敞开大门只有短短20多年的时间，全世界华人都能够理解各国人民对中国这个遥远的东方国家尚存在许多的疑问及种种误解。但是这并不意味着某些人可以不负责任、口无遮拦地攻击中国以及中华民族。即使不了解中国，任何一个有良知的人也不应该对发生在自己身边的事实选择性失明。
It is for these reasons that I have written to sternly protest and condemn both CNN and Jack Cafferty!
China has only opened its doors to the world for a short twenty-something years, but Chinese people from around the world are all able to see that people from every country around the world still bear many doubts and various sorts of misunderstandings toward China, this country far off in the Orient. But this does not mean that certain people can be irresponsible, and freely make attacks against China and the Chinese people. Even if one doesn't understand China, no conscientious person ought to be selectively blind to facts which lay before them.
以美国为例，华人移民多少年来都是社会中最遵纪守法和最友善的一群人。Cafferty先生是否记得， 9.11事件发生后 ，布什总统向劫机事件中表现英勇的华裔空姐邓月薇家属颁发奖状，称她是“美国的英雄”，事件中另一名中国学生曾喆在世贸大厦现场不停救人最终英勇牺牲，被追赠纽约市“社区贡献奖”的曾喆是美国历史上获此殊荣的第二人；Cafferty先生又是否知道，去年震惊美国震惊世界的弗吉尼亚理工大学枪击案中，有一名华裔女教师挺身而出带领学生顶住大门阻止了枪手进入，从而保护了全班学生。从何时起，善良、本分、为世界和平默默做出贡献的华人竟然成为了Jack Cafferty口中的恶棍和暴徒？
我相信，身为一名资深政治评论员，Jack Cafferty决非无知，他更没有失忆，促使他公开侮辱中国人的根本原因是他对我华人的种族歧视！他的言论无疑是对整个中华民族，尤其是在美华人最无耻的伤害，更造成了非常恶劣的影响，严重损伤了中美两国人民的友谊。
I believe, that as a senior political commentator, Jack Cafferty is in no way ignorant, as much as I don't believe he has amnesia: the underlying reason which led him to publicly insult the Chinese people is his racism towards Chinese people! His words undoubtedly referred to the entire Chinese race, shamelessly hurting in particular those Chinese in America the most, but the most terrible impact this has had is the serious harm it has done to the friendship between the peoples of America and China.
贵台多年来一直标榜CNN在全球树立了很强的公信度和良好的声誉，而现如今Jack Cafferty信口开河恶意攻击中国人的言论无疑是CNN甚至全美传媒界的耻辱！试问一个赤裸裸发表种族歧视言论的人有何资格站在道德高点批评他人为恶棍暴徒？
希望CNN及Jack Cafferty收起傲慢与偏见，立即向全世界华人进行公开、正式的道歉！
如果贵台及Jack Cafferty本人迟迟不愿就辱华言论事件向全世界华人做出诚恳回应，全球华人定将依法提起集体诉讼，追究CNN及Jack Cafferty的诽谤侮辱责任和相关赔偿。
期待你们的答复！
一名普通中国人：
2008年4月18日
I hope CNN and Jack Cafferty retract their arrogance and prejudice, and immediately issue a public and formal apology to the Chinese people of the world!
If this station and Jack Cafferty himself take their time in issuing a sincere response to the Chinese people of the world for this remark incident which has disgraced us Chinese, the Chinese of the world are firmly prepared to adhere to law and file a class-action lawsuit to look into CNN and Jack Cafferty's responsibility and appropriate compensation for this slanderous insult.
I await your response!
I just checked out the video of the Cafferty comment. While there is no question he is being rude, there is also no question that he is talking in political terms - i.e. about the government of the PRC, and perhaps more generally the ’system’ of the PRC. He talks of them having been thugs and goons “for the last 50 years”. Is this not a clear reference to the establishment of the PRC? He is just bashing communists.
I am fed up with Chinese leaping up and down demanding apologies without having taken the time to understand what has actually been said.
Any racial aspect to what Cafferty said was a subtext. The substance of Cafferty’s comments (if ’substance’ is the right word to use to describe what comes out of his dumb mouth) were CLEARLY directed at the PRC government only.
Why can the author of the above letter not see this? Why does the author of the letter have to make this a race issue when it clearly is not?
we chinese interprete that as racial attack, not buts, ifs ors about it.
Chinese people have been expecting Olympics in Beijing for many years. It’s you who should take some time understanding our feelings.
PRC government is accepted and supported by most Chinese people, of course they’re not perfect. To varying degrees, they have so many things to improve. But what Chinese people really need for now is peace and prosperity. So insulting PRC government, especially now is equivalent to insulting Chinese peole.
Firstly I’s like to say that Cafferty is a moron.
Nevertheless, the Chinese reaction is a waste of energy. If only the Chinese people were united on questions of corruption and pollution….
I think this shows that China is not ready for democracy yet, the top tier of the PRC government (which contrary to Cafferty’s remark, are quite intelligent and constantly working for the betterment of China) know this and wisely delay the democratisation of China. This is a chance for Chinese people to learn to live with opposing opinions. There is no need to react violently whenever someone says “free Tibet”, it’s not a sign of strength but a sign of weakness. If China wants to be a successful superpower and not become a copy of the USA , they need to be more confident, allow more dialogue and criticism.
The Chinese should notice that no government supports an independent Tibet or Xinjiang.
I know many Chinese people who are boycotting Carrefour, none of them has even seen an evidence connecting Carrefour with the Tibetan separatist movement. Have you learned nothing from the American WMD experience in Iraq?
Somebody help to translate this:
李承鹏致CNN的一封信 送一盒“马应龙痔疮膏”
倍可亲(backchina.com) 我的美国同行CNN及卡弗蒂你们好：
春天来了，听说我的美国同行不小心患了口蹄疫，十分着急，贵国的性病一直是长在下半身，不知为何这次集体发作于口腔，望告知详情，切切。
我英语一直不好，但从来没有把CNN念成WCNN，现在觉得也许WCNN更合适，因为在真正的垃圾眼中，世界的一切才会都是垃圾，只有真正的暴民和匪徒，才会断言另一个国家和族种50年来一直是暴民和匪徒，卡弗蒂不小心就暴露出他、CNN、及美国的头等机密，哦，卖糕的，是不是前总统的拉链没把CNN 及主持人的嘴锁好，美国拉链，原来美国人也生产垃圾产品。
顺便打听一下莱温斯基可好。
有点跑题？其实也不，我以前一直挺喜欢美国的，可后来看了莱温斯基的长相后暗自觉得贵国领袖品位很垃圾，他当着国民撒谎的样子很暴民，前段时间看薛涌写的你们很多州长、议员玩性游戏时却又玩疵了，觉得他们更很垃圾更暴民，但我一直没好意思说。这是因为我觉得自己只能用美国人的思路去理解美国人，这叫民主和自由，比如说你们从小就喜欢吃热狗，这是一种文化，所以我假装认为你们的长官只是在和女伴练习吞热狗的方法。我认为我这样的想法很文明，也接近西方的思路，“我可以不同意你的观点，但我用生命捍卫你发表观点的权利”——“我可以不同意你吃热狗的姿势，但我用生命捍卫你这种姿势表达出来的深喉态度”。
注：我这封信需要找个精通汉语白化文写作的高手翻译，英语特别是美式英语玩不转，这一点你们是垃圾。
过去中国人不太惜得嘞你们美国人那点破事，是因为建国只有二百年的你们就是一个还长青春痘的小屁孩，孩子因为青春躁动喜欢砸碎邻居家玻璃在街边管点闲事儿假装点酷哥是小节，但这次你们指鼻子骂中国人祖宗我可不干了，最近好多人要骂你们家祖宗十八代，我劝阻了，咳，他们哪儿有祖宗十八代，历史短得和兔子尾巴一样，要靠的话顶天了就靠到祖宗七八代，那还是杂种。
就算要比谁更“垃圾”的话，我们家就算有垃圾这么几千来也修炼成了精，那叫马王堆文物，那叫孔夫子的夜壶，你们家有吗，是白宫吗，是打着激素冒充肌肉男的史泰隆吗，当你们每次派好莱坞讲故事说“LONG LONG AGO”的时候，我一考查，不对呀，那是人苏格兰的历史，那是人意大利的历史，那是人古巴比伦的历史，或者是非洲黑兄弟的历史。
博物馆里倒是有，可那是偷来的，你们不说偷，说是帮中国人保管。多伟大的情操，美国人有好帮别人家保管财物的习惯，这一点都不暴民不匪徒。
WCNN及卡弗蒂同行，有一些中国哥们这几天用知识份子的厚道态度跟你们讲道理，不像我，我是“混识份子”，就是我把很多知道不知道的东西混在一起形成武器的份子，我的意见是，跟美国人不用讲道理，跟丫玩板砖和挠痒痒。
作为同行你们能告诉我吗，我一直不明白为什么美国人不准伊拉克伊朗朝鲜以及很多国家拥有核武，自己却天天加班加点生产着，这很像二愣子只许自个儿拥有弹弓却不许别人拥有，说是玩弹弓危险，其实是为了保全自己老大的地位，后来眼绷瞎了，我也不明白美国人每天生产出地球上最多的废气，却号称自己很环保很绿色，这如同放屁的人先跳出来骂放屁的。
美刀现在是不太灵了，美国经济也在打摆子，我研究过很多版本的美国史，发现这些版本里有一最重要的共同点就是，美国人上世纪初还很穷，首都卫戍部队司令穷得来连喝杯红酒也是奢侈，老百姓更穷，饿着肚子跑到首都去示威却被士后到处驱赶，其实大家争来争去也就是为了一根红肠，打那时候起红肠就成为你们的最爱，直到莱温斯基时代，后来你们是通过打两次世界大战才发起来的，先假装热爱和平，就是不要，等到锅热了油爆了，你们才下手赚大发了。
有钱就是硬道理，这条经验指引着你们，现在一缺钱就四处想打仗，说是维护世界和平，整顿世界秩序，开始我还觉得美国人就是有正义感，自己贴着差旅费出去调解别人家庭纠葛很不易，可是这些年来你们实在显得太忙了，人两口子吵架关你们美国人什么事，时间长了我就觉得你们有点可疑，因为你们总跑别人家去，别人到你们家去时，你们却特害怕。
那年我去美国采访女足世界杯，在签证处碰一美国人不给我签，还问我一些问题，比如：
一、你为什么不喜欢美国女足还要去美国采访女足世界杯？（当时我回答：我喜欢中国女足难道不够吗？“喜欢”不应是一个记者是否采访的原由）
二、你为什么先去叙利亚再去美国？（我回答：先去叙利亚是因为先在那儿有中国国奥比赛后有美国女足世界杯）
三、你能保证不滞留美国吗？（我笑了：求您能不能不借故把我滞留美国，那地儿太不好玩了）
那签证官立马给我护照上盖了一个“永不签证”的拒绝章，我就说：“你以为女足世界杯在美国举办就是你们美国的比赛吗？这是国际足联委托你们美国人办的比赛，产权属于国际足联，相当于租你们几座城市给世界人民参加比赛，我是国际足联官方邀请的记者，你们美国人要做的是怎么保证我在美国期间的安全因为你们那地方太不安全，而不是因为我先去了叙利亚就拒绝我入境，你们不是号称新闻自由吗，你们不是不把体育和政治相关吗，我告诉你，你要是不改掉这个决定的话，明天我保证二十四小时内就让一百万中国人看到民主自由的美国是怎么回事。”
见我这样，那哥们在新浪上搜索了一下我的中文名字，他识中文，发现面前这人果真挺横的，第二天就给我签了去美国的章。
这条经验告诉我们，美国人的性格其实像螃蟹，壳子挺坚硬的，横行霸道，只要你掰开它的命门，立马就流汤。
你们CNN来中国采访我们什么时候这样对待过你们，还得先问你喜不喜欢姚明才允以放行？这段时间中国人有点太惯你们了，有关方面太怀柔了，其实可以再狠点。
听说CNN对于卡弗蒂的口蹄疫这样解释：“我们不认为这伤害了中国人民，如果中国人一定要这么认为的话，我们可以道歉”。之前我还只是怀疑卡弗蒂只是生病了，现在我可不可以认为整个美国都变态了，我会说：“美国一直由一群撒谎者、爱滋患者、SM性游戏爱好者、吸毒者、掮客组成，如果你觉得我这样伤害了美国总统议员州长和人民们的话，那我可以道歉”，或者就像美国媒体曝光总统因坚持晨跑脚上长了鸡眼，我就说：“美国总统其实根本不是一个人，我刚刚看了，他就是一个大鸡眼”。信不信，“大鸡眼”这三个汉字很快就会被演绎成其它很多说法，我有奖征文。
CNN同行，其实我们之间根本用不着道歉，咱各玩各的，你们把一点都不垃圾的肯德基家乐福全及一切美资企业搬走吧，看谁更急，毛主席当年面对你们的威胁曾经说过：“封锁？打仗，核武器，大不了再打一次解放战争，我们有好几亿人，当今世界谁怕谁。”
主席那会这么一说真就把你们吓着了，后来就派阿甘们来跟我们打乒乓球了，再就派福特通用肯德基跟我们做生意了，这不挺好的吗，大家和和气气赚钱花，非得把别人整成垃圾暴民你们才心理平衡？我研究过你们的宪法，卡弗蒂这么说很违宪。
而且你们不是信上帝吗，要是你们最后去见上帝时，上帝问你们在尘世间干的最多的事情是什么，你们总那么牛逼哄哄地说我们干的最多的就是指责别人，管教别人，这就违背了上帝的旨意，骄傲、暴躁、贪婪……就是犯了七宗罪，下辈子就得下地狱。而我们信佛，佛问我们尘世间干的最多的事情是什么，中国人大多会说，哎，好多事情都没干好，佛想想，就说，那你们轮回再做人吧，把没干好的事情去做好。
我们把你们国家的名字汉译得多好啊，美利坚，美好，胜利，坚强。这是垃圾能有的美德吗，这是暴民的审美情趣吗，我国大多数人都很善良，要是像CNN那样的路数，是不是就可汉译成“饿，埋了坑”“俺，卖给你啃”，还真是你们国家的真实写照。
美国挺多优点，但那种螃蟹性格太招人烦，我这封信是附了邮资的，你们应该回复，我教你们学习怎么写骂人的文章，来来回回就“垃圾”“暴民”，太没技术含量。
最后，出于同行之间的关心，我给卡弗蒂一个治口蹄疫的秘方，买一盒中国产的“马应龙痔疮膏”，每次上节目前抹一次，下节目后再抹一次。
Mao,
If you interpret it as a racial attack you misinterpret it. It is very simple really.
It is also worth emphasizing how illogical and (apparently) unable to understand simple English the author of the letter is. This is odd by the way because the English in his letter is not too bad. For example, he even says that because ‘goons’ was used in the plural then it must refer to the whole Chinese people. Why? How can somebody capable or writing such a long letter in English be unable to grasp how the plural works?
If Chinese honestly interpret this as a racial attack they are being ridiculous.
@Kiwi:
What I am fed up with, is the great number of people like you suggesting that the Chinese have no right to feel insulted by attacks against the Chinese government. Because that implies either: (A) One should not feel insulted unless he himself is the target of an attack; or (B) No one who isn’t “brain dead” would feel mentally attached with their government.
As to A: Would you feel insulted if someone is cursing your grandmother? Your best friend? Your favorite actor? Your most admired political leader? Where do you draw the line?
As to B: If you considered a foregone conclusion that the Chinese government is so evil it should be detested by all free-thinking Chinese, then of course there is no need for any discussion any more.
Unfortunately for the Chinese people, in this country ,we can insult even our own government, it is allowed, as we have free speech. So, I’m not exactly sure why a the media making a very clear insult to the Chinese government is any different.(the government not the people - I too watched the tape and there was no racial attack)
You must also remember that the middle and lower middle class here have had many of their jobs taken away - they feel they were taken away by the Chinese to the great detriment of middle class America and the great benefit of Corporate America.
At this point in time I can’t see anyone here really caring too much about the hurt feelings of the Chinese people, because people here would like prosperity as well, but they feel the Chinese took it. So really the people who have not had the luxury of an education, are now without decent employment opportunities. (Walmart which imports most of it’s stuff from China pays a crappy wage, hardly a living wage, and their benefits stink)These people don’t care about the Olympics ,they don’t care about Chinese pride, they are angry and they just want to live a decent life.
Someone in the media discussing China (the government ) in a politically derogatory way , to them, is justified.
Marches like this aren’t going to “wake up” westerners and make them start listening to Chinese people’s concerns. If they look like the one in the photo they will just make people think Chinese are a bunch of fanatical nationalists.
I think it’s a cultural difference between the Asian focus on the group and the western focus on the individual. The Chinese make the mistake of thinking westerners will be inpressed by large numbers of people, but no, they will be alienated by a faceless ranting mob.
Westerners are more likely to respond to an articulate and sympathetic individual arguing their cause.
Look at the South Africans during apartheid - they had people like Desmond Tutu. And of course that’s why the Dalai Lama has been so successful. Who have the Chinese got?
I check out again what Cafferty has said, I still find what he said is ambiguous and can’t tell whether he refers to all my countrymen ou our government, maybe that is where the discord comes.
The problem of corruption is recurrent and we have get used to it. It’s also dangerous when it’s becomes normal.
I can expect that kind of reation to Cafferty. Maybe they are overreacting to it. Chinese’s national ego is easily stimulated, and I know well that it only show our weakness and insecurity. I hope that my country can be a really great one, not like American. And we really have a long way to go, to be more tolerant toward differant ideas.
In Internet, it’s hard to reason. Slogans have more power,just like Gustave Le Bon have said. People get fanatical. We get stupid when a lot of people is toghether.
And I think that our goverment should rethink about the publicity of Tibet. Maybe Dalai is telling lies, but his lies is more credible than the truth that the our goverment tells.
It’s rather interesting to me that when Chinese excercise freedom of expression, it is deemed a “waste of time” and something that makes some people “fed-up” with our lack of understanding.
I don’t think we really need so much advice on why, how, if or when to excecise this basic human right.
Nor do we need to apply special rules for Chinese that are not applied to others.
If Mr. Cafferty is free to express his opinion in (ironically) blunt and offensive terms that is his choice, and one that comes woth the privelidge of a mass-media pulpit.
If we chose to take issue with him in clear and articulate terms using the internet, that is our choice.
If it bothers some that we do so, I apologize for the inconvennience caused.
1.Can I call you a pig and later explain we refer “pig” as brilliant and beautiful animal? thus if we call you a pig, it is a praise actually.
2.We don’t care in you country, you can insult whatever your government, friends and anyone close to you and you think how reasonable it is. When you deal with people from different culture or religion, it should begin with mutual respect not rudeness. If people keep offending each other without awillness perhaps, it is not a good way to make friends or just cooperation.
Benny2,
I agree with you on that the Chinese don’t “need” to boycott Carrefour. But they chose to do it as a way to express their anger, and they are entitled to do it as long as they do it peacefully.
Why are they angry? No, it’s not just because you shouted “Free Tibet”, it’s not just because someone attacked Jin Jing, it’s not just because LV donated to Dalai Lama (this is obviously not the cause of the boycott, but rather a supporting evidence). This anger is resulted from all the events occured in the previous month, the sum of them, not any single one. This anger is resulted from the untimate cause behind these events, and admit it, most Europeans look down on Chinese.
Yes, you are criticizing the government, not the people. You are painting the Chinese as a bunch of pathetic victims who have no human right, no freedom. You claim you are not bashing the people, as they are not responsible for the miserable fate of themselves. But as the second largest economy (PPP) in the world, as a country which has been a super power for thousands of years, and will probably return to that position soon, Chinese people do not think they are pathetic, they are angry that you think they are pathetic, no matter whether you think it’s their fault or not.
What makes it worse is that, 90% of the time the evidence your media use to prove the patheticness of China is either faked or inaccurate.
It is regretable that Mr Cafferty made such a boorish and loutish remarks on China and Chinese.
No doubt he has tarnished the CNN name.
The only honourable thing for him and CNN to do is to retract the remarks and apologise categorically to the Chinese people.
Why offend the Chinese when the world is facing the terrorist threat ?
>Marches like this aren’t going to “wake up” westerners
Oh, I certainly do think they will wake up Westerners. Just not the way the organisers might have hoped.
cooper,
Interesting arguments, but I still don’t see your point. You argued that there is a reason why Americans are angry and they like to hear Chinese people (or government) be called “goons and thugs” and Chinese goods be called “junks”. That’s fine, and I think it’s so clear that I don’t need to argue why Chinese don’t like to hear these. You can’t argue that because this is fine for you the Chinese must accept it, can you? This is just difference in culture.
So, you just do what you want, and we will do what we want, until maybe the politicians find a middle ground.
BTW, attitudes like “unfortunately for you we can do this and you can’t” don’t help.
Mick,
We are not the weaker side why do we want a “sympathetic individual” to argue our cause? I have tried so many times to argue with a westerner, yet I seldom truly succeeded in changing their minds. From my perspective most westerners are helplessly brainwashed by their media propoganda; from your perspective probably most Chinese are helplessly brainwashed by our media propoganda. Fine, no one can really persuade the other.
Thus, I don’t think the marches in western cities are meant to “argue our cause”. I believe the purpose is to express our anger, and show our unity. You will say that’s because we are brainwashed no matter what, that’s fine. But the fact is that all Chinese, home or abroad, are deeply supportive of our government this time.
We do criticize our government at home, and if you know Chinese you will see millions of such posts on the Internet. I don’t like many aspects of the government, but overall I think it’s doing well, especially economically. However, call it the Chinese culture, we don’t like our government be criticized by outside, especially those with an arrogant attitude, no matter how bad it’s doing its job. Color Revolution will never find its soil in China.
Boycott of Carrefor hypermart may not be the best way to reflect the sentiments of the people towards the French president Sakorsky’s attitude, it is nevertheless the only way for the people to demonstrate their displeasure at the way the relay torch was treated in Paris !
It is symbolic and sends a message to the French that this kind of disturbance is not to be taken lightly !
驳：你们在污蔑我们中国人的智商，你们的说法前后矛盾，我们中国人最讨厌伪善之人，我们重行轻言，你们重言轻行，这是可以理解的，但你们把你们的思想强加于我们，并且侮辱我们，这是我们所不可能忍的 我们的行为体现的是我们的人格。我们真正重的是人格，而你们的行为严重侮辱我们华人的人格与尊严。我们的所言所行是我们心里最深刻的表达。可以所你们不在乎你们的 人格。你们在乎的是你们将得到的。你们的人权是建立在过于追求个人利益之上的。你们不注重个人修养，谈何评论他人是暴徒呵恶棍与否。你为那些种族歧视者辩论，是为了掩盖你们的伪善，你们可以骂我们中国人，说是你们的权利，却在我们对你们的行为进行批判的时候你们说我们反应过度，说我们是浪费精力，你们根本就不想我们中国人有言论自由你们的伪善，让我认清一个事实，你们的生活环境是糟糕的，日子过的比我们还不好。麻烦你们去关心一下你们的政府的所作所谓，我对你们的政治丑闻耳闻已久，你们在指着别人的鼻子说三道四的时候先看看自己的样子。还有我们中国人向来把国家当家，把国家脸面当自己的脸面，你们说你们说的是中国政府不是中国人民，那么你大错特错了，你侮辱所有中国人，更何况建设国家是我们所有中国人的责任，并不是政府的全部责任，你在污蔑我们的努力，你在诋毁我们中国人。To cooper: you said”At this point in time I can’t see anyone here really caring too much about the hurt feelings of the Chinese people” Now here I will say do we ask you to care about our feelings to our government?do we ask you to care about the human right in China? Although you insult us , still , I can give an answer that our life is better than 50 years ago ,maybe some aspects are better than yours which you think you have a better life than ours especially that right of free speech and what you said Tibetans have right to be independence .and you also say the ZD’s violence behavior is kind of protest. and you said the PRC should care about the ZD’ rights , and Here I ask you a question that do you care about the people’s rights for living who were killed by the ZD. Do you care about the Chinese rights ? No ,of course not,absolutely not,You said you don’t care ,right ?You said you more care about the prosperity of own country .And you can see what you have done to us ,to all the Chinese.you are liars , you are all hypocrites .This is what the Chinese most scorned. Cooper you are finding excuses to defend what you have said . In fact , they are lame.and what you have done are screwed
I’m really tired of my fellow Chinese demanding that others “understand” them when they’re doing such a poor job of understanding others. We’re behaving as if our people or our government officials have NEVER said something categorically STUPID on television before. I’m sorry, but some of the most ignorant, racist comments I’ve ever heard have been from Chinese mouths on Chinese television or media.
Have the Chinese never criticized the governments of other countries? How many times have we criticized or laughed at George Bush, the Japanese government, or Taiwanese officials? Should so many Americans, Japanese, and Taiwanese people all join together and feel that the Chinese are insulting the entire population of America, Japan, or Taiwan? We can insult Ch#en Shu! B!an and a good many Taiwanese will nod their head in agreement! We can critize Japanese officials who visit the tombs of war-criminals and many Japanese people will agree! We can call Bush an idiot and tons of Americans will not think you’re insulting them personally, the American people, or border on hating us!
This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be offended when Jack Cafferty says some offensive comments on CNN. It does mean we need to stop taking the moral high road too. Do we really think we’re proving ourselves to be better than Westerners when we make the SAME mistakes as they do? Superior people do not sink to the level of inferior people. In fact, superior people are so confident in their superiority that they don’t even pay attention to the b!tching and whining of inferior people. As someone else has already said above: we are only proving our INSECURITY in being such babies who 1) cannot take criticism and 2) fail too often to understand the context of such criticisms.
No, we Chinese should not be pathetic. But we’re making ourselves PATHETIC by being so feverishly insecure. We’re making ourselves PATHETIC by allowing our brothers and sisters burn with such intense nationalism that we’re willing to hunt down, harass, and even kill our own people JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION. How else do you expect foreigners to look at us when our most popular BBS has so many extreme and hateful people? Is this freedom of speech? When our government doesn’t even grant us this “basic human right” (as another Chinese wrote above), how are we invoking this “right” when we do not even extend it to our own brothers and sisters? We do not behave as if we have the freedom of speech or thought, we behave as if there is only one thing we can say and think and ANYONE who disagrees is our ENEMY.
We are EMBARASSING ourselves. Yes, many Westerners are EMBARASSING themselves too. But should we be as stupid as they are? We have a lot of intelligent and rational citizens in China. Unfortunately, too many of our ignorant, racist, and bored citizens have effectively silenced them. Now it is a battle between the idiots of the West versus the idiots of China.
Fantastic. Let’s see who wins the gold medal in that event this August.
My advice to all Chinese at this moment is to be patience, be real patience. Slow down your anger, gather your strengths and then strike hard (real hard) at those countries who continue to behave as international bullies.
Good luck. Remember, be patience.
“”unfortunately for you we can do this and you can’t””
This is not an attitude, it is a fact, how else can it be stated. Every fact is not an attitude.
I was not telling you I personally did not care. I was trying to explain to you the plight of many here, and why they really do not give a darn - yet you still take “the fact” I am relating to you as an insult.
Ask any Midwestern American whose job was shipped to China. It is the answer to why no one here really takes offense at what Mr Cafferty said. People here are concerned about themselves, and are still trying to come to grips with the detestation they feel free trade has brought upon them - even knowing without it we would surely die as a nation.
That having been said, our media, especially our cable media, is known for being extremely biased one way or the other, cable media, the corporations who own them, and the pundits all have an agenda. The American people, for the most part are becoming increasingly aware of that fact, and more every day the people will research information themselves, and come to their own conclusion.
The fact that media pundits insult something here almost around the clock has to in some way lesson the significance.
If retribution for “the insult” were to be levied on journalists that would be a horrible thing for the few true journalists left, and for free speech. For this, here, we must suffer the fools.
Up to this point I have not seen a whole lot of dialogue on the Internet between Chinese citizens and American, though I see much between us here and those of other nations.
Maybe places such as this will help with that problem.
So all these anti-cnn are plotted in advance and well organized by the Chinese government, well funded with the huge currency and trade reserves, intended to hurt the feeling of the world.
Great One China, One Wet Dream !!!
To kai:
Can you name some detail sample that chinese government or pubulic reportors criticized other country’s base on fated or inaccurate information? or just like what Mr.jack Cafferty did call people goons and thugs? Pls show me fact within 10 years from any government voice or public media and let’s have some sense of criticism and find some fact around us.
10,000 people reportedly out in Paris today, less in London and not sure about the other cities. Here in China, tens of thousands spread across the country. More here. From what I can tell, webmasters are working overtime to clean Carrefour off the internet…I just wonder if that will do anything to stop the real protests set for May 1.
People relax, I wouldnt call what chinese is showing nationalism, its merely collective anger, it has yet to transform to actions . And dont act like nationalism is something so dark and evil that we have no part ov it, if it werent for the lovely nationlism we wouldnt have gone to Iraq, and we wouldnt be staying there asof now.
There’s no doubt old Jack hates chinese gov, AND their people. I know some of us want to believe we can seperate a government with its people, so we can elect Dubya at one hand, and pretend you and me personally have nothing to do with what’s happening in Iraq at the other hand, this is called having ur cake and eat it too … seriouly fellas, we need new trick to fool the world.
To the chinese posters here, Cafferty acts like an ahole because he gets paid to do that, he can say whatever he wants, you can protest however you want. If you could get him canned like Imus, good for you, if you couldnt, find the next thing to protest, you see we Americans protest and condemn for fun, dont let it affect ur life. writing 5000 word essay is so not cool.
@ Eric Hu: I’m not sure I understood your post due to how it was written. What does “other country’s base on fated or inaccurated information” mean?
If you’re looking for examples of the Chinese government or its media calling people “goons and thugs” you can start with the repetitive editorials and articles found on XinHua or China Daily regarding “the Dalai clique.”
Of course, some might find such examples to without merit, but only because they believe that such allegations and smears to be true, as the CCP government and media insists. This is exactly the same as some people in the West insisting that everything the Dalai Lama says is true too. So either you believe the Dalai Lama or you believe the CCP government and everything “the other side” says “MUST” be false. It is an intellectually dishonest situation.
Let me give you a specific example: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/12/content_6612165.htm
“What happened in Paris just revealed the true face of Tibetan separatists to more people and showed what kind of freedom and rights the Dalai clique want, the commentary concluded.”
This was published by the People’s Daily. The basic point of this article is to suggest that “the Dalai clique” believes it is a “human right” to attack a handicapped woman. They associated “the Dalai clique” with a random protester in Paris, who may support Tibetan independence, but likely has ZERO official relationship with the Dalai Lama other than a possible common goal. How does ONE idiot’s actions in Paris suddenly REPRESENT “the Dalai cliques” views on human rights? How does ONE idiot’s actions in Paris suddenly mean that “the Dalai clique” advocates attacking handicapped women?
It is a ridiculous implication and an even more pathetic exercise in LOGIC. More importantly, if we want to compare this with Jack Cafferty, at least it was REASONABLE to conclude that Jack Cafferty was referring to the Chinese CCP government (as one poster above highlighted with the “last 50 years” comment). We can highlight that idiot’s actions to the pro-Tibet supporters as being violent and wrong (just like many of us are highlighting actions of certain Chinese people to be violent and wrong), but it is unreasonable and illogical to say that one man’s actions represents “the Dalai cliques” human rights politics.
Should I take every individual Chinese person who has threatened the Chinese Duke University student and say that represents the official CCP government’s human rights policies? Do the disrespectful and violent actions of a few hypernationalistic Chinese mean the CCP government endorses normal Chinese people to accuse other Chinese people of being “race traitors” and then go hunt them down?
I’m amused that you tried to use the “let’s have some facts” approach when responding to my post.
@ Jack Kennedy: Maybe the harmon!zing of online Carrefour protests is because they’ve begun to negatively affect the CCP government, similar to what happened with anti-Japanese protests years before. Whatever the case is, though, I don’t think the government should stop the protests or “real” protests set for May 1st at all. As long as the protests are non-violent, the people should be free to express their disappointment or disapproval, even if it is misdirected.
@ notcool: Respectfully, if you don’t think that “collective anger” has transformed into “actions,” you’re probably not following up on the news enough. Even if there were no “actions” against foreigners, the “actions” against other Chinese people are disturbing enough.
Being proud of your country is one thing. Nationalism tends to border quite clearly into the “negative.” So yes, it can be pretty dark and evil. You’re right, not many people (much less entire countries) are innocent of nationalism. I’m not sure if nationalism is the direct cause for Iraq, but yes, many Americans have the blood of vomit-inducing nationalism on their hands.
I agree with you entirely with your ending point, even if it wasn’t communicated in the clearest fashion (then again, I’m not sure I’m one to talk). There is always an audience for extreme punditry, especially in America. While the Chinese demand that others “understand them,” it would be nice if more Chinese “understood” that opinions expressed by Jack Cafferty, even on the media, are fairly routine. It would be nice if my fellow Chinese “understood” that while American media may reflect Americans, it is NOT the “official line” of the American people…
…perhaps UNLIKE how the Chinese media is presented.
@Kai
Thank you for your contribution, I wish there were more voices like yours in cyberspace. This whole anti-Western tide in China is thoroughly depressing, as I watch the demonstrations going on in China my heart sinks.
Kai,
I don’t think the fact you provided is good enough. First of all, the accusation is not wrong. Head of the Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC was permitted to be organized by Dalai Lama himself) has just told Italian newspapers they would consider using suicide attacks. Second, as you said, the evidence China Daily cites (the attack at Jin Jing) is not enough to support this accusation, but it’s at the same level of interviewing an exiled monk in India and suggest the human right condition in Lhasa is horrible, which is the common practice of western media. It’s not in the same league with what the western media have been doing recently.
cooper,
Unfortunately for you our average IQ is higher than yours, so you probably can’t understnd what I say.
What would you feel if you see the above sentence at the beginning of a lot of my posts? Although I don’t completely agree with you on whether it’s an attitude or a fact, I would not like to argue here. I was just suggesting you that if you mind your wording sometimes it would make better conversations.
Kai,
Also, I don’t think we are “embarassing” ourselves. As I have made it before, this is NOT about persuading the west or changing their minds, it’s impossible. This is about expressing our own voice. We do NOT have to do it according to the western standard, we do NOT have do it the way the westerners like. As notcool said, we have this collective anger, we need to express it. We don’t expect the west to change their minds because of it, we just want to express our emotions. It’s so funny you are saying “Don’t do it! Westerners don’t like it! They will laugh at you if you do it!”.
I agree some people is overreacting here, are some have even broken the law. I condemn their actions, but it doesn’t invalidify the whole picture. Chinese will learn to express their opinions more peacefully, I wouldn’t worry about that.
Finally, we do not understand the westerners, but we demand the westerners to understand us. Why is that? Because we also don’t criticise the domestic affairs of westerners, yet they do to us! We are just asking them to understand what they are talking about before they draw criticism, are we asking too much?
XniteMan,
You’re absolutely right. Although I think Cafferty’s remarks were meant to be about the government, the Chinese have every right to get upset or angry about their government being attacked. Moreover, the “junk” comment was silly, who really thinks China JUST puts out junk anymore? Is a Lenovo Thinkpad junk? Personally, I’d love to have one.
“This is about expressing our own voice. We do NOT have to do it according to the western standard, we do NOT have do it the way the westerners like.”
This is perfectly acceptable, and the boycotts are completely in accordance with the Western standard anyway. The hacking less so, but I personally don’t have a big problem with that either. I think this is all great in the long run. A chance for the West to see what the Chinese _people_ feel, not just the politicians speaking through xinhua.
If the people are satisfied with their government, then that’s that. Get over it, and give them a break. Is this some leftover from christianity that we need to “convert” everyone to “freedom”?
“One World, One Dream” almost sounds sarcastic now, eh? Lucky for me, I never cared about the Olympics anyway, in any country. “Olympic spirit,” what a joke. Who doesn’t see right through that?
To kai:
I must say your point of view is such a fancy to me
let’s see your proof from people’s Daily again:
“What happened in Paris just revealed the true face of Tibetan separatists to more people and showed what kind of freedom and rights the Dalai clique want, the commentary concluded.”
It is a official condemnation to Dalai and his followers who initiated 314 riot in Lasha where innocent and ordinary people were killed whoever they are han or tibetan. They are condemnation because of their crimination by killing people to achieve separatism. 5 girls were burning alive in a shop by those criminals. That is the reason so many chinese people have to find a way to express their anger. Just as 911 strike to American people, those terrorist killed innocent people to achieve their personal willness which have been prove by tons of evidence as well as Dalai Lama had a direct relation to this crimination. Is freedom means killing if necessay? Is that mean those people in paris holding a “free tibet” flag or wearing T-shirt know throughly tibetan history and realized who is muderer to all of dead in 314? I don’t think so. Because tibet exile and westen media told them “another fact” base on either fated or “modified” information, in some cases no proof at all. And they automatically believe in what they said althought westen media had been unusually unprofessional at the very begining. It is all of anti-cnn activity and slogan “don’t be too like cnn” come from.
I’m not sure who is including into “Tibetan separatists” “and “the Dalai clique” in your mind. But those who support killing and physically attack the disabled torch relay girl in paris(now you see the connection) are clearly the cause of all of the protest now.
I am a chinese young man come from xinjiang.in my opinion, chinsese tend to know western countries more than your westerns understand us. at least ,as for me , i would spend twenty to thirty minutes in browsing websites like usnews.com,ap.com bbc.com to know what happened in these developed countries. and i even subscribe email from washingpost.com. i would ask how many westerns developed the habit of browsing our website like sohu.com?
chinese , especially young generations know much about westerns, from your tradtional cultures,your history,your politic systems,your militray affairs to your people.but i don’t think majority of your people usderstand our country better like we do for u. because, we begin to study english from middle school, now ,in big cities children study english even from elementary school.
with the rapid development over the past 30 years, china has made great progress in all directions,especially in ecnomy . now ,we have strong desire to display our peace-loving and harmonious image of and invigorate the country’s economy further via beijing olympics. but for what reasons some of your western countryies choose to boycott the games ? what wrong things did we do? if just because the Tibet riots, i think the western countries who want to boycott the olympics has made a laughably stupid blunder! all chinese will look down you because all people in the world know the spirit of the olympic games, it has nothing to do with politics. and if you boycott beijing olympic games, so will we boycoyy London olympic games in 2012? that’s too absurd.
Fact-checking China’s netizens: an German student’s expose of that anti-CNN website
http://jotman.blogspot.com/2008/04/fact-checking-chinas-netizens-expose-of.html
XniteMan I am impressed by your diplomatic and fair arguments. Being raised in a western society and married to a Chinese gave me a good basic insight on both points of view on this delicate issue. The points explained in your arguments gave me further understanding to why my partner acts the way he does, and I thank you for helping me with this as he loves his country very much and has been very upset with the recent developments.
I believe this to be a cultural misunderstanding and I feel sad that things are going the way they are. I hope the the leaders of each nation will step up soon and do what they’re supposed to do to have this issue put to rest and calm everyone’s anxiety.
I feel sad that the Olympic spirit is tampered with and I believe that the timing of Tibet’s declaration of independancy has been selfish. Tibet is playing the victim card (of course I am not denying that they might well be the victims), attempting to gain the sympathy of the world and taking full advantage of the time when the whole world is looking at China to prove itself by having a great Olympics event.
I think it is fair to say that the Olympic games and the independancy for Tibet are completely two separate issues. The protestors for Tibet’s independancy may be for a good cause, but don’t ruin the spirit of the games for the rest of us.
CNN paid journalist happily described the entire 1,5 bio Chinese race (most of whom they never met) all over the world as goons. I think this, although this is expected of the racist CNN, is the worst form of racism. Chinese all over the world should do more than just boycoting Carrefour. Carrefour - and CNN - should be boycotted permanently.
Chinese boycotting CNN won’t accomplish much, as most viewers are not Chinese anyway, you should put pressure on and boycott their advertisers if you want a result
Rudolf, as a native English speaker, I am 90% sure Cafferty meant the Chinese government were thugs and not the race. That said, you’ve every right to be upset about it anyway.
As for “Olympic Spirit,” it’s money and politics, don’t hope for anything more, your heart will be broken.
@ Rudolph, who said, “CNN paid journalist happily described the entire 1,5 bio Chinese race (most of whom they never met) all over the world as goons.”
False. He described “the Chinese” as such. “The Chinese” is not an unambigious phrase, it’s an adjective after all, which can be used to refer to “the Chinese nation”, “the Chinese government”, “the Chinese business community” or even “Chinese food” in another context. Xinhua has distorted his rather ambigious phrasing and translated it as “華人”, which is clearly inaccurate.
As we are often labeled reserved, Chinese people seldom have protest, but when they do, that’s because they are badly hurt or indignant. We have the right to show our anger. We normally don’t ask the permission of others to show it as long as it doesn’t hurt others. Mutual understanding is a good thing. But when westerners are tied of our way of expressing ourselves, why we are always asked to think in theirs shoes?
Many people would say that the US government is currently run by “goons and thugs.” Many people would say the the Chinese government is also run by “goons and thugs.” To say that a country–whether or not it is your own country–has bad leadership does not pay any disrespect to the people of that country.
XniteMan: said :
“Why are they angry? No, it’s not just because you shouted “Free Tibet”, it’s not just because someone attacked Jin Jing, it’s not just because LV donated to Dalai Lama (this is obviously not the cause of the boycott, but rather a supporting evidence). This anger is resulted from all the events occured in the previous month, the sum of them, not any single one. This anger is resulted from the untimate cause behind these events, and admit it, most Europeans look down on Chinese.”
I think you further prove my point that China is not ready for democracy yet. So easily swayed you are by your own media , its scary. Sure the Western media lies and distorts reality. Even if we assume that the western media was 100% wrong about Tibet , how many people have demonstrated for Tibet in the West? no more than 5000.
The Chinese media have produced no evidence at all, not even one to show that the riots were orchestrated by the Dalai Lama., yet not a single Chinese questioned the media. It is quite possible that exailed Tibetans had a hand in it, but where is the proof?
Where is the proof that carrefour has dealings with Tibetan separatists ? Over 2 million Chinese (probably more by now) didn’t ask for a proof.
All those Westerners who try to artificially advance democracy in China are wrong. Leaving China to the hands of Hu Jintao and Wen Jaibao is the the only intelligent option.
I don’t know if my other letter went through, but what I do sense is the taking advantage of people’s pent up emotions, perhaps on both sides of the debate. Ask yourself if throughout history, has any government reached perfect standing? No. The U.S. is wrong about Iraq, though the debate is far from over. China is wrong about Tibet, though that debate will continue long after the Olympics. If people sense anger, they should ask deeply, Why? I think the Chinese are repressed and lacking freedom. I think, and in particular basing some of my thoughts on the fact that I am in South Korea, and there are some similarities, that people are under-employed, over crowded, mis-treated, and in general at the mercy of those who control the money. Change will come from within. I for one am glad this debate is occuring. It’s about time!
@ Amban: Seen you on some other blogs before. Thanks for the comment.
@ XniteMan: I expected many people to think my fact was not “good enough.” The facts and arguments of the other side are rarely ever “good enough” in this contentious issue. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and we’ll discuss logic here.
1. How is the People Daily’s suggestion that “the Dalai clique” believes attacking handicapped women to be a “human right” RIGHT?
2. The Dalai Lama consistently advocates peaceful means and has even condemned the Tibetan violence during the March protests. Yes, the TYC is a questionable organization that often tolerates, advocates, or flirts with using any means to advance their agenda. But does it represent the Dalai Lama? Or are Chinese people associating the two out of convenience to smear the Dalai Lama? Let me repeat the example that what some Japanese do does not represent all Japanese or the government. What some Taiwanese do does not represent all Taiwanese or the government. What some Americans do (Jack Cafferty) does not represent all Americans or the government. Likewise, what some violent Chinese do should not represent all Chinese or the Chinese government. The accusation is wrong because it is premised upon a logical fallacy.
3. I don’t think it is the same level when you look in context. Before I explain that, let me remind you that if us Chinese feel disappointed with Western reporting, aren’t we pathetically hypocritical if we do the same thing? If what our China Daily does is “at the same level?”
4. The West interviewing an exiled monk in India who criticizes the human rights conditions in Lhasa can be understood in the context that the CCP government does not allow the West to interview monks in Lhasa. If the government does not give access to the media, where else do you want the media to get information? The government? A government that has bankrupted its credibility in such situations time and time again with the Western media?
There are reasons why the West and its media are often skeptical of the official stories of the Chinese government. Even domestic Chinese are routinely skeptical of the government-controlled media when they’re not united by the fury of nationalism against some “foreign threat.” Unlike China, the media in the West is not a mouthpiece for the government. Instead, they are a CHECK against governments and corporations and whatnot. We are seeing this role of the media slowly manifest itself in China today too. We have news organizations and media who expose government corruption or scandals. While we haven’t gotten to the point where the media can always and freely criticize or expose the government, we’re seeing SOME of it. That’s good for China, but the reality still remains that the government has ultimate control over Chinese media and have consistently exercised that control.
Whether we Chinese like it or not, the Dalai Lama is still a revered leader for many Tibetan Buddhists within Tibet. He certainly has his agenda, no one denies that (just whether it is peaceful as he says or violent as the CCP government claims). If the Chinese government won’t let the Western media in to find out what’s going on and the CCP government has a reputation for offering state-spun propaganda instead of balanced facts while the Dalai Lama has somehow managed to win over the hearts and trust of the vast majority of non-Chinese, what makes you think the Western media WOULDN’T ask the exiled monk in India for what he thinks is going on?
The Western news media is all about finding information and reporting that information. They make mistakes too, but today many Chinese are insisting that the media willingly do no investigation themselves and willingly listen only to the CCP’s official story. It is “the Dalai clique” vs. the CCP government. Both have agendas and political motivations for their views, beliefs, criticisms, and propaganda. The difference is that the Dalai Lama has a reputation for welcoming communication and investigation while the CCP government does not. Who would you trust?
Peaceful protests began March 10. Riots began March 14. The government locks down the media and restricts access to Tibet. The Western media knows something big and important is happening in Tibet but they can’t get in to find out. The government won’t tell them anything until days later. What few bloggers and journalists are in Tibet can’t get information out. “The Dalai clique,” despite being exiles, have connections with the interior of Tibet and may know something. If the media can’t find out for themselves and can’t get any/sufficient information from the CCP government, who do you think they’d go ask for more information?
When “the Dalai clique” claims the government is cracking down on “peaceful protests,” Westerners automatically think about six/four/eightynine and they can’t help but assume the CCP is doing something that they disapprove. Without more information and not likely to trust the CCP information, the West jumps to conclusions…just like the Chinese who often automatically assume the West is always criticizing and slandering China.
Both sides have preconceived notions of each other, biases, and misinformation. As stubborn or ignorant as Western people are, many of us Chinese are no better. So all we do is criticize each other, blame each other, hate each other. The only difference is that the West rarely uses the excuse of “this is an internal matter” when they can’t convince the other side to agree with them. THIS excuse is what makes us Chinese look incredibly insecure and pathetic. We demand that others accept our view, and if they don’t, we then try to silence them and take away their right to think for themselves of have a different opinion by insisting that it is an “internal matter.”
5. You’re right, what often happens in Chinese media ISN’T in the same league as the Western media. In fact, often, it is far worse. No one denies that some Western media have made reckless mistakes in their reporting of the Tibet incident. Misidentifying Nepal as Tibet is one great example. Getting angry that a news agency cropped a photo one way even though they clearly wrote that a group of Tibetans were attacking a truck is another. Moreover, claiming that a few mistakes suddenly means all Western media are liars and cannot be trusted is even more ridiculous exaggeration, often aimed at inciting emotional nationalism instead of being fair and rational. Take a look at our news in China. How many times do we make mistakes? How often can we trust our media to speak the truth or present multiple sides? Is our media perfect? Have we never made mistakes before? Why do our news media rely on foreign news agencies for their international news coverage when we’re supposedly convinced that the Western media are all crooked and evil?
When the media makes mistakes, we should point them out. However, in doing so, we shouldn’t begin to make our own mistakes. Calling all Western media liars is JUST AS BAD as the some people in the Western media calling the CCP government a bunch of “goons and thugs.”
Again, I ask you, why are we allowing ourselves to make the same mistakes we are criticizing the West for? Is this really making us superior to them or showing them that we are just as bad as they are?
@ XniteMan re #32: The Olympics is about mutual understanding and friendship. If we feel the West is “expressing” their bias and prejudice against us, does doing the same thing back at them uphold our ideal of what the Olympics is about? How can we be friends if we refuse to listen to each other, communicate with each other, and discuss fairly? If our idiots behave like their idiots, then yes, we’re embarassing ourselves.
Your perspective is wrong from the start. You think this is a matter of “persuading the West or changing their minds.” Wrong. We do not have a monopoly on the truth, even though we’d love to think that. “The Dalai clique” doesn’t have a monopoly on the truth either. Nor does the West. The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle.
We shouldn’t be thinking about how we can change THEIR minds, we should be thinking about WHAT our mutual problems and disagreements are and HOW can we find ways to bridge our misunderstandings and arrive at mutually acceptable solutions. Too many people on both sides think they’re right and they other side should listen to them. This is not what the Olympics is about. This is not how we’re going to improve international understanding and cooperation for the future.
If you want to express your anger, go ahead. I will express that I think you’re an idiot. Wise men think before they act. Wise men do not find problems to be angry about, they find solutions for problems. Expressing your anger is a selfish act that might make you feel better but ultimately only contributes to the problem. With 5000 years of history, I would’ve thought my people would have learned better methods of diplomacy.
What IS this “western standard” you refer to? Please answer this question. Also, what is the “Chinese standard?” Don’t try to turn this debate into a “China/West different” thing. It is not. Being able to control one’s anger and use words instead of violence to find solutions instead of creating problems is very much a Chinese ideal as much as it is a Western ideal. Don’t try to create a China vs. West dichotomy when there isn’t one. Just as the intelligent, educated, rational people in the West should do their best to mitigate the knee-jerk idiocy of their ignorant, emotional masses, we too should do the same on the Chinese side.
Go ahead and express your emotions. If your goal is to just cause more problems, go ahead. However, if your goal is to actually improve the situation, expressing your anger probably will probably hurt more than help. If you don’t want to consider that and instead just be angry, fine. Congratulations, you’re no better than the pro-Tibetan protesters screaming and cursing at the Olympic Torch Relay.
One is always asking too much when one demands that others “understand them” without trying to understand others. It is a ridiculous proposition. It is even more ridiculous because many Chinese, more often than not, are not really asking the West to “understand” us. They’re asking the West to just accept our opinion or our version of the facts! Again, we either act as if we have a monopoly on the truth or, worse, we actually believe we know the truth 100%. Do you honestly think we Chinese know 100% of the truth? Even when our own government would not allow its own media to enter Tibet to report on what was happening?
Furthermore, we Chinese do plenty to criticize the domestic affairs of Westerners. Let’s not pretend we’re innocent. I agree with you that the CCP government is not as interventionist as the United States or many European countries (which may or may not be a good thing depending on the situation), but we Chinese DEFINITELY criticize the domestic affairs of westerners. How many of us have the misguided notion that America is a violent place full of guns, murder, and crime? Why? Because our media freely reports the latest crime statistics of America (interestingly, America doesn’t mind sharing that information with the world…unlike us). We’re popular for involving ourselves in the domestic affairs of Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. Don’t give me this nonsense that China doesn’t criticize others at all.
More importantly, what happened to the Olympic notion of “One world?” Why do we want the West to unite with us when it benefits us and then we try to shut them out if it doesn’t benefit us? How hypocritical is that?
How can you ask others to understand us when we’re not even really trying to understand why others have a problem with us? Are we honestly trying to understand the problems in Tibet and why the West seems to be against us? Or have we conveniently framed the entire situation as “some splittists” who have tricked the rest of the world because the rest of the world is already baised anyway? Aren’t we jumping to the same dead-end conclusions as those Westerners who think we’re all brain-washed?
I’ll give you some credit. You’re at least communicating about this issue in the comments of some blog. You might learn something new or change your mind, and you might teach someone something new and change their mind. That’s better than many of our fellow Chinese who stay in their nationalistic BBS forums cheering each other on whenever someone damns “the enemy.”
I think the first step in improving this terrible situation is to recognize that there are people on both sides who honestly want to understand each other and work together. We also need to recognize that we need to help control dangerous extreme prejudices and emotions on both sides so they do not create more problems.
@ Eric Hu: Despite using a quote, you didn’t actually analyze anything from the People’s Daily commentary I linked for you. All you did was use a string of irrelevant “appeal to emotion” logical fallacies.
That commentary was proof that the Chinese media does its fair share of spouting reckless inflammatory nonsense, just like Jack Cafferty. The thrust of that article as not to simply condemn the use of violence by Tibetan rioters in Lhasa. It was used to equate ONE protester’s violent actions in Paris to the official human rights policy of “the Dalai clique.”
Should I take the actions of ONE hypernationalistic Chinese person on Tianya threatening to kill the Duke University girl and her family as the official human rights policy for the CCP government?
I’m still waiting to see the tons of evidence the government and other Chinese people seem to refer to when they say they have linked the riots in Lhasa to the Dalai Lama himself. Do you have any? More importantly, how credible is it? Is it as credible as the information the United States had for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Can I trust the “evidence” of one side when that side was able to prevent anyone else from gathering or analyzing the “evidence?”
Let’s not be ridiculous. Didn’t our teachers teach us to be critical thinkers back in middle school? (maybe not)
Just as claim “the Dalai clique” used “modified information,” others can claim the CCP government ALSO uses “modified information.” Who is right? Do you believe the CCP government because you trust them or because you’ve gathered and analyzed the evidence from all sides yourself? Please figure this out for me.
As I’ve laid out before, a lot of Chinese anger towards the Western media is based upon a failure to understand how the news media works in the West. When something big happens, the news media in the west immediately reports on what they know and will revise their reporting as new information comes in. China may prefer to not report anything at all and wait for the government to have an official final story before reporting anything, if at all. When the West heard that something terrible was happening in Lhasa, they tried to get information. The government wouldn’t give them anything but the exiled Tibetan goverment did. The Western media reported that. As time went on and more information became available, the West reported those too. When the Western media was able to get reports from the few journalists they had in Lhasa, they reported them and those journalists did a good job of clarifying that the violence was from mostly from the Tibetans. Is there still prejudice and bias from some Westerners? Yes. Are there some Westerners who don’t accept that the rioters were Tibetans who were killing Han and Hui? Yes, they’re idiots. But did the West fail to report these when they found out? No. Did they report these things at the beginning? No, because they couldn’t have known in the beginning because they couldn’t get that information and the Chinese government is partially responsible for that.
You can blame “the Dalai clique” for initially presenting the riots as peaceful protests being cracked down by Chinese security forces and conveniently not mentioning that there were Tibetans attacking Han Chinese. However, you can’t blame the Western media for not wanting to go into Lhasa and find out more information themselves. You CAN, however, blame the CCP government for not letting the Western media see the truth themselves.
Does it make sense for us to hide the truth from the media and then criticize the media for trying to find out information through other sources? Do you think anyone really trusts us when we do so many things to make them feel like we just want to control the truth and what others think? We give other people the impression that we have secrets to hide. If we were so confident of the truth, why bother hiding?
Your last paragraph doesn’t make much sense and I don’t know what you’re trying to say. Very few people support killing and physically attacking disabled people. There is also no proof that “the Dalai clique” actually support the use of violence against disabled people. We know the TYC has a self-professed potentially militant agenda, but how is that the Dalai Lama or ALL “Tibetan separatists?” Do you really think all pro-Tibet people support the use of violence and specifically want to attack disabled people? That one attack in Paris single-handedly embarassed and set-back the efforts of the Dalai Lama. He probably hates that guy in Paris more than the CCP. In fact, I bet the CCP loves that guy right now. Why? Because that one guy’s actions single-handedly bolstered countless support for the CCP government from its citizens.
I applaud you for engaging in dialogue, and I welcome you to address these points. Unfortunately, I don’t think you’ve been sufficiently addressing any of my points.
看到这个网站似乎有版主将中文评论翻译成为英文？本来自己也可以用英语，但终归还是没有母语来的痛快，所以既然有这个服务，我就索性用母语发表意见吧。
关于本次由于奥运火炬传递中一些西方国家发生的事情引起的中国国内目前抵制法国家乐福和要求CNN的主持人道歉仪式，作为一个来自中国大陆的年轻人，我的观点如下：
1、关于巴黎发生的抵制奥运事件，我相信这部分人只占法国6000万人口的很少比例。但需要指出的是，法国总统萨科奇的确比较过分，刚从中国拿走了200亿美金的关于京沪高铁的高额合同，这次立即公开抵制本应与政治毫无关系的北京奥运，这的确极