As the post-election crisis looms in Zimbabwe and Mugabe clings to power, the fate of the vessel holding the latest arms shipment from China remains unclear. Sightings of armed uniformed Chinese soldiers in the country have for some raised the question: how long have they been there and what exactly is their role?
Official statements made by Beijing defend the weapons as merely part of an old contractual agreement, saying the sales don't violate any UN mandates or international laws. Many Chinese netizens are rejecting criticism by accusing America of being an even larger weapons dealer. Reports in recent days have made little mention of Chinese military presence in Zimbabwe, instead focusing heavily on the issue of Chinese arms sales itself; here are the top reader comments on the related news stories from several Chinese BBSes and news portal websites:
anti-CNN.com:
霍去病粉丝
这是一个好的开端，不能只准州官放火，不许百姓点灯！！！
This is a good start; you can't let those in charge go around burning down houses while common people can't even light lamps!!!
jonathanho
美帝国主义是真正操控dl流寇的恐怖集团！！中国要奋起！！！
American imperialism is really what's in control of the dalai bandit terrorist groups!! China needs to rise up!!!
maozanchao
就算真有巡逻又怎么样？
准你美国佬、英国佬、德国佬在伊拉克巡逻，在阿富汗巡逻，在朝鲜巡逻，在日本巡逻，在全世界巡逻，就不准中国军人在津巴布韦巡逻？真他妈的混帐逻辑！
Even if [Chinese soldiers] are on patrol, so what?
You Yanks, Limeys and Krauts can go patrol Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Japan and the whole world, but Chinese soldiers can't go patrol Zimbabwe? That's really bloody screwy logic!
IronBlood BBS:
zslzzll
像中国和津巴布韦的这船武器买卖完全是合法交易，中国没有做错什么。
China selling ships full of weapons to Zimbabwe is a completely legal exchange, China hasn't done anything wrong.
费舍
强盗逻辑。。。也怪我们做的不够秘密
Hoodlum logic…and then they blame us for not being secretive enough about it?
DanielDiao
卖武器又怎么了，美国大批大批的武器进入台湾也没有人出一声
What's wrong with selling weapons? Heaps and heaps of American weapons go to Taiwan and no one makes a sound
德国国防军士兵
西方媒体就是喜欢给我们国家扣屎盆子
为什么我们国家的对外宣传这么无力?
Western media just like to dump shit on our country
Why is our country's external propaganda so powerless?
kenyuan111
我相信政府会妥善解决了，毕竟我们在非洲的影响力是那些西方国家没办法比的！
I believe the government will resolve this properly; after all, Western countries' influence in Africa doesn't compare closely with ours!
cbhelp
我们只会讲”我们没错”吗?
什么时候中国能够不以弱者的姿态来回答问题
那就是我们出头的日子了
Is ‘we didn't do anything wrong' all that we can say?
The day China no longer has to respond as the weaker side
Those will be the days when we stand out
笑你
现在是强者合法的世界，只有在中国打倒了美国后，中国才会有合法的地位，不然的话，在西方政客和煤体中中国永远没有合法过。
Legitimacy comes with power in this world; only when China takes America down will we then have legitimate status. Otherwise, China will never have legitimacy in the eyes of Western politicians and media.
GXLS武警老兵
运一点小东西人家就指手画脚，哎，忒没面子啦。没卖给拉登哥和伊拉克反抗组织就不错啦。
We just send a bit of that stuff and people get all worked up. Sigh. We really have no face now. Selling them to bin Laden or Iraqi opposition groups might not be such a bad idea.
GXLS武警老兵
管他呢，他说他的，我卖我的。
Just ignore them, they say what they want, and we sell what we want.
网屋大哥
没有做错什么
We haven't done anything wrong
AKC_113
对!去联合国拍桌子:老子就是要卖军火!能把老子咋的?
Right! Take this to the UN and smack the table and tell them: ‘we'll sell arms if we want to. What you gonna do about it?'
Sohu:
中国和津巴布韦的武器买卖完全是合法交易，但是在敏感时期还是多注意些，不要授以人话柄。
The arms trade between China and Zimbabwe is completely legal, though we should be more careful during this sensitive time, so as not to give anyone the upper hand.
这就是帝国主义歧视和攻击我们的证据
This is just proof of American imperialistic discrimination and attack toward us
不干涉他国内政是中国提出来的，但好像也只有中国一个国家遵守 。世界是干涉的世界。中国的理论很难联系实际，与世界脱轨了。中国应该全球范围内扶植亲中政权和势力，广结盟友。朋友多，路才宽。中国的不干涉他国内政是另种形式的闭关锁国。把自己隔绝世界之外。
17日，南非广播公司、各广播电台、《星报》、《公民报》等各大媒体，均大篇幅报道了“中国军火”抵达南非并准备运往津巴布韦的消息。
Non-interference in other countries' domestic affairs is something China proposed, but it seems like China is the only country which abides by it. The world interferes with the world. It's hard for China to apply its theories to practice, they're so far out from the rest of the world. China ought to prop up the pro-China regimes and forces around the world, and consolidate its allies. The more friends China has, the wider the roads on which to move. China's policy of non-intervention is another form of closed-door policy, cutting itself off from the outside world.
On the 17th, the SABC, all radio stations, The Star and The Citizen newspapers and other media all splashed the news that “Chinese Arms” had arrived in South Africa and weren't being allowed to be shipped on to Zimbabwe.
“保利”公司又犯傻了！
南非也开始欺负中国了！！！！！！！！！！！！1
Now South Africa's bullying China too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
不该卖武器给这些烂人。
We shouldn't be selling weapons to these rotten people.
中国军火是合法交易!好无疑问,谁阻碍,谁将受到中国的制裁!如果西方国家从中截获,中国也必将以牙还牙!
Chinese arms are traded legally! Without question, anyone who obstructs them will be subject to sanctions from China! If Western countries intercepts them, China will see to equivalent retaliation!
我们不应该为了这些蝇头小利去损害自己的名声. 出口这些武器的公司实际损害了中国的远大利益.
We shouldn't be damaging our reputation for such petty profit. The company exporting these weapons is doing effective damaging China's long-term prospects.
交易当然合法，就是不太道德，不过话说回来，美国还曾经卖给萨达姆武器呢。
别人的不道德行为是不是可以成为你不道德行为的依据呢？这个问题请同胞们慢慢思考。
Of course this trade is legal, it's just not very moral. Although, America did in the past sell weapons to Saddam.
Is other people's immoral behavior justification for you to do the same? I'd hope our compatriots would consider this carefully.
这就是西方的媒体，在转移视线。
That's Western media for you, diverting attention.
政府不知道怎么做的，今年老出现重大差错！！？！！抓住把柄了！！！郁闷 ！！！
The government doesn't know what it's doing, all these huge bumbles this year!!?!! Let's take advantage of that!!! It's depressing!!!
中国政府一定要保证此批军火顺利到达津巴布韦，否则，以后的正常军火交易将受到沉重打击。
The Chinese government must ensure that these arms arrive in Zimbabwe safely, or else from now on regular arms trade shipments will be subject to heavy attack.
西方反华的贼心不死
The anti-China West is hell-bent on hurting us
西方真恶劣，中国从美国订购两艘航空母舰。
Despicable West, China should order two aircraft carriers from America
靠,好象美国没卖过军火似的
Damn, you'd think America'd never sold arms before
中国人卖军品就是非法的，而他们卖军品就是合法的，这什么禽兽逻辑？
支持的顶一下！
It's illegal when the Chinese sell weapons, but legal when they do it, what kind of backwards logic is this?
美国是世界上最大的军火出口国。
America is the largest arms exporter in the world
强烈支持击沉美国运台湾的军火船只！！！！
Strongly suggest we sink American arms freighters to Taiwan!!!!
简直是污蔑!贩卖军火伤天害理的事情怎么是我们中国政府做的呢？只有美国才做这种事情！！！
Pure slander! Would our Chinese government do something as impudent and outrageous as peddle munitions? Only America does things like that!!!
反华者无孔不入.
Anti-China types are everywhere.
中国出售军火是正常的事情。
China sells munitions all the time.
美国以后不要卖给台湾武器！
America, no more selling weapons to Taiwan from now on!
不要总是在外国人对我们采取行动的时候
我们只是口头申辩！！！！
要维护我们自己的利益！
行动起来！
我们需要行动！
We have to stop making excuses
When foreigners take actions against us!!!!
We have to defend our own interests!
Spring to action!
We have to act!
美国是世界上最大的军火商.
America is the largest arms dealer in the world.
中国可以对美国的售台武器进行扣留
China can start seizing weapons America sells to Taiwan
中国!我们应强硬!应有行动.
China! We must be strong! We must act.
没航母真是不行了啊
That we have no aircraft carriers is unacceptable
错在，中国没有航母。
The mistake is that China has no aircraft carriers
中国是主权国家，中国没有做错什么。
China is a sovereign state, China hasn't done anything wrong.
不要把整个自由世界都树作敌人。
We don't need to make the entire free world our enemy.
象南非这样的三流国家都敢对中国说不那还得了
中国应当向俄罗斯的普京学习。强硬一些。
别人才不敢小瞧咱。
A third-class country like South Africa dares
say no to China?
China ought to learn from Putin, and be more tough.
People won't dare messing with us then.
From China.com:
又是CNN
There goes CNN again
最好能卖点给基地组织,好让他们对付美国和北约.
We should start selling some to Al Qaeda, let them take on the US and NATO.
我看奇怪了。什么事情一到中国人头上，无论对错，全是中国人错了。谁在操弄着世界舆论？谁在折腾中国？！！
This seems strange to me. China gets blamed for everything, whether it's right or not, and it's all Chinese people's fault. Who's manipulating world public opinion? Who's tormenting China?!!
只要是支持中国的国家，就多卖武器给他们
Any country as long as they support China, we should start selling them more weapons
世界军火交易市场，美国、英、法各占百分之几？中国才占百分之几？我们既然是世界工厂，现在的比例是完全不正常的，将来应该超越美国才正常嘛！
How much of the world market for munitions trade is taken up by America? England? France? And how much of it is taken up by China? Being as we are the factory of the world, the current ratio is completely normal. Just as it's normal that we stand to overtake America!
“中国没有做错什么“ 这句话以后最好不要说了
”China hasn't done anything wrong” Can we stop saying this so much from now on?
我倒觉得不该卖给非洲那些动乱或者可能动乱的国家这些武器。难道非洲各种族间打的还不够热闹吗？
I just feel that we ought not to be selling weapons to African countries in turmoil, or near to turmoil. Aren't the different ethnicities in Africa fighting intensely enough as it is?
QQ:
不是热爱和平吗？卖杀人武器总是不好的。
Don't we strongly love peace? Selling weapons to killers is always wrong.
你们可以卖,我们就不能卖?你们可以自由卖,我们就应该有限制的卖?这是什么强盗逻辑!你若惹得爷性起,老子明天就扛颗原子弹出去卖,就卖给古巴!我看你咋的!
You can sell them, but we can't? You can sell them freely, but we can only sell under restrictions? What bandit's logic is this! Just try savagely provoking us, and tomorrow we'll haul out the atom bombs to sell—to Cuba! We'll see how you handle that!
中国现在卖这种小的军火。以后要卖大的。卖先进的。支持支持支持““““`
强大的中国
China's selling small arms now. Soon they'll be bigger, more advanced. Support, support, support………
Strong China
我估计要是他们卖给津巴布韦武器，中国肯定没得说，那又为什么呢？鬼佬最清楚
I bet it if was them selling weapons to Zimbabwe, China wouldn't say a word. And why not? Those gwailos know exactly why
应该给他们一个教训，看他们还嚣张！
We ought to teach them a lesson, see how arrogant they are then!
卖武器赚钱天经地义
Selling weapons for profit is just the natural thing to do
有卖原子弹 的吗?我要买 3个;
Are we selling atom bombs? I'll take 3!
NetEase:
又是CNN， TM的还在造谣祸众
There goes CNN again, spreading more hurtful fracking rumors
我靠，大陆现在和台湾是交战状态，谁的船进出台湾，中国也可以要求登船检查。特别是日本鬼子和美国鬼子的。是中国人就顶。
Damn, the mainland is in a state of war with Taiwan right now, so if anyone's boats move in to Taiwan, China can demand to search them. Especially those Japanese or American devils'. If you're Chinese, click this comment up.
中国急需几个大航母战斗群。
China urgently needs several large aircraft carriers and a pack of fighter jets.
对这种事，更应该强硬。
为什么？因为既然不敢和美英法等发达国家耍横，如果再被此等小国欺负，那尊严就更没有了。
必要时，可以打。
We need to be even harder on incidents like this.
Why? Because since we don't dare stand up to any developed countries like the US, France or England, if any countries of equal or smaller size pick anything with us, we'll lose all respect.
中国需要航母保护自己的利益！
China needs aircraft carriers to protect its own interests!
怎么连南非也欺负我们中国啊！我想我们确实需要一场战争来树立大国的威严！！！！
How is it that even South Africa is bullying China now? I think we definitely need a battle to earn our respect as a major nation!!!!
What is your point to post all the netizans’ comment without feeling bored?
Do you know which country sells the most weapons and which country sells the 2nd and 3rd?
Why do you post some meaningful and indepth subject such as ….
“Democracy is a tool or a goal?”
“Does China have to go west to get developed?”
“Does Netizans need to be cautious about their message on the post for the sake of the country?”
“Why most of westerners believe in higher moral ground as far as Tibet and China are concerned’
“How fanatic the western netizans?”
“Why nobody takes actions again Saudi Arabia, India?”
“Why more people dies everyday in Iraq than before?”
“Why Chinese love their government so much while nobody else does?”
Go deeper, please.
Wow. Peace and solidarity? Anyone?
These are true faces of China. The world must wake up.
Its time for America to get out of China And shut the cinese econamey down now ,,The Arms attempt in Africa Shows the world the people of China have no controal over there Government They are still pupets in a comunistic Controled world with no Human rights !! There Idealisum is to take overe or trade Resources in Africa Because there Resources are running DRY ,,
It is only time ,,China will piss off some terrorest buying arms ,and they will get ther wakeup call ,But dont count on America The Unitrd Kingdom Or Japan to bail your week assses our Maybe North Korea oh i forgot they are related to the terrorest HuMMMMMMMMMMMMM good luck as they say in China 88 86
我想，那些捍卫了中国的行动，在津巴布韦知道什么我们所要面对的就每一天都在这里！地狱，我们甚至不希望他们在这里。 ！他们是不如英国和我们的痛苦，因为他们到这里来，并采取了最什么，我们已在我们的govs看看中东的政策。
我想我可以写在他们的语言，也许我会在一个位置，要真正给他们一块我的主意。津巴布韦，我们不喜欢他们的任何优于英国。我们现在更糟的痛苦下，他们的枷锁。 ！
The disturbing thing about all these messages is their virtual unanimity- 90% of these people are saying the same thing- and some using very aggressive language.
It is giving Chinese people a very bad image.
@subjectivelistener
GVO only aggregates what people are saying online, including translations. I agree this is not an ideal basis for any sort of dialogue. I actually spent a full day scouring the internet for more Chinese-language perspective on China’s involvement in Zimbabwe (that has been published within the past week). If you or anyone knows where the “deeper” is, definitely please send me the link and I’ll get translating.
So what if China is trading weapons! U.S. trades weapons with many parts of the world. What is America doing patroling Iraq and Afghanistan? FYI -U.S. also wants to pressure China to allow U.S. to trade advance weapons with Taiwan!
@ tree…
I wonder if you have seen what American netcitzen do on unmoderated sites.
@JK…
Here we go again…This is the hard numbers for global arm trade:
In Billions of dollars:
United States 123.543 39%
Russia 54.316 17%
France 26.915 8%
United Kingdom 17.628 6%
Germany 16.073 5%
China 10.860 3%
Italy 6.506 2%
Other European 40.649 13%
Others 20.274 6%
Somehow I don’t think US/Europe can complain much
Thanks Wei
The numbers are different from what I see on wikipedia, but the parameters are different…though the order is a bit similar.
If that puts the Chinese view in perspective, also note that Chinese media were saying the CIA had quickly gotten involved and was pressuring Mozambique and Angola and other surrounding countries to not let the ship dock.
subjectivelistener:
well said!
John,
“If you or anyone knows where the “deeper” is, definitely please send me the link and I’ll get translating.”
I sent you a link with an article written by an offspring of former Tibetan slave on his view of 3.14 riots but received no response from you. that was how i got to know that you have your own agenda. I respect your right to choose stuff to translate and publicize accoring to your own agenda. anyway, here is the link with plenty deep stuffs:
http://www.wyzxsx.com/Article/Index.html
Mugabe used AL QAEDA funds for the weapons order ,,Makeing china a AlQaeda supporter of world Terrorest OPTs
Through out all these comments no one has even mentioned the people of Zimbabwe. If America is wrong in selling arms to Israel and other countries does that make it right for you to do the same ? so that another regime can oppress people ? If you want to do right , why dont you DARE sell arms to the Palestinians ? Mmmm ?
people please? what is this? how can we look upon this as a legitimate exchange, thats a load of shit! how can china even consider bringing weapons into africa, what is the use, it can only bring bloodshed amongsr brothers and sisters, & actually china has no business in africa anyway!, zimbabwe do not need weapons, they are not at war with anyone but themselves, so if you all logically think about it, whats the point people? wake up and smell the air!
any one interested in konwing THE LARGE PICTURE of the young netizens whose words have been frequently translated into Chinese by John on this forum this article below might be a start.
http://www.wyzxsx.com/Article/Index.html
宋晓军：闪开，八零后“网络政治家”来了
无论你持什么样的观点，有一点无法否认的就是：在这次由奥运和西藏问题引发的风潮中，80后的网络一代突然登上了中国政治舞台的中心。由于我在4月14日写了篇“俄罗斯80后是如何反抗西方围堵的”的博客，并被新浪在当天推上了首页，一些朋友看了后开玩笑地对我说：你在“煽动”啊！对此我只能说这是高看了我。自10年前办“舰船模拟论坛”时（2000年转到新浪成为最早的军事论坛），我就知道年轻网民的力量，我从来不认为他们是可以被什么人操纵的。
其实俄罗斯的外部压力来的比中国早也比中国大，因此俄罗斯的80后反弹也比中国来的早一些，同时俄罗斯学者和官方对此的研究与引导也多一些。比如一年前俄罗斯学者提出了 “国际进入新对立时代”的概念；提出了“可控性动乱”的概念。比如他认为：信息革命带来了数十亿人的政治觉醒和参政的积极性，使得国际安全的可控性下降等等。他们还认为： 意识形态领域的竞争无疑将日益尖锐，民主已变成了相互攻击的武器，美国将重塑自己的吸引力。但令人遗憾的是，在竞争白热化的环境下，追求民主的崇高价值之争难免会以地缘政治冲突为特点。
俄罗斯的官员对80后网络一代也非常重视，尽管俄罗斯宽带普及率比中国差远了。2004年底，当乌克兰大学生打着写有英国哲学家柏克的箴言：“恶人得胜的惟一条件，就是好人袖手旁观”的标语，几周内不知疲倦地唱歌呼喊口号的时候，俄罗斯官方并没有在意。但当乌克兰发生了“橙色革命”后，官方被年轻人的力量震惊了。每年俄罗斯有150万青年学生毕业，这些年龄在16到28岁的年轻人占俄罗斯总人口的20 ％。如何赢得这些年轻人的心，成了官方的重要课题。他们提出了“主权民主”的概念（按照俄罗斯政治调研所所长马尔科夫的说法，“主权民主”这一概念是对那些在民主化幌子下建立依从性政治制度的“颜色革命”分子的原则性回答，也是对20世纪90年代俄罗斯按别国模式实行的那种“低劣民主化”的回答。），提出了 “软入侵”概念。如俄罗斯历史学家尤里”阿法纳斯耶夫（Yury Afanasyev）所说：“俄罗斯将成为什么样的国家，这很大程度上取决于她如何看待自己的历史。”于是官方在2007年出版了《俄罗斯现代史：1945-2006：历史教师教学手册》……等等。
这次我问过中国青少年研究中心的朋友，问他们这次抽样调查作了没有，他们说好像还没有。从社会学的角度看，年轻人容易感受到现行的文化价值观和规范对自己的压制和约束，他们总在寻找新的文化去冲击现行文化标准对自己的约束。而他们活动的平台就是网络，他们认为网络是属于他们文化阵地。最近有60后、50后的朋友与我谈起这次年轻人的表现，上来就说“义和团”、“红卫兵”这样的比喻，这显然是根据他们自己的文化体验说出来的简单化定义，从“超女一代”、“游戏一代”到“义和团”、“红卫兵”跨度有点儿大了吧。
我记得“舰船论坛”在7、8年前也有关于西藏问题的争论（好像是在军事历史坛子里），引经据典的贴子很多，那时很多都是60后和70后（现在我正让人找那时的贴子，如果能找出来看看一定很有意思）。但这次我注意到很多年轻人都愿意引用毛泽东1959年4月15日关于西藏问题的讲话（讲话全文点这里），并说毛是一个“大牛人”。他们为什么喜欢“大牛人”呢？会不会喜欢“大牛人”就一定会演变为“红卫兵”呢？我最近刚好问了一个80后，他说毛50年前对西藏的讲话太牛了。他认为毛在这么严肃的讲话中还不忘了给胡适回个“贴子”，这与今天的网络太相似了，这太逗了。
我觉得这些年轻人看毛与60后、50后的人看毛是不一样的，至少他们一直是把毛看成是一个人，与50、60后相比他们更平视毛。有些朋友跟我说主要还是启蒙的问题，但是按说这些年在网上对毛诋毁的文章很多，而对胡适吹捧的文章也很多，也够“启蒙”的了吧，可是年轻人为什么还是这样看问题呢？他们的文化选择标准是什么？这是值得研究的。因为文化选择的主体从来都是大众，从来不是那些躲在书斋里的圣贤。年轻人在选择新的文化标准以摆脱权威的控制时，一定也会仔细掂量的。
总之，面对“80后‘网络政治家’来了”这样一个现实，很多人会有很多的想法。最后我要说的是，当年舰船“军事历史”坛子里的老网友如果能把那时争论西藏问题的贴子找出来（好象是重磅炸弹、闲云孤鹤争论的比较多吧）就好了。
China’s sale of weapon to Zimbabwei is legitmate dealing between two states, and I have seen no violation of international laws.
On the other hand, the illegal weapons we Americans ship to Africa to sustain conflicts is completely deplorable, but nobody give a hoot.
We even let Russian mob boss Victor Bout to run guns out of Texas and Floria into Africa:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20070520&articleId=5714
“Much of the arms that have fuelled the killing in Darfur and the south have been brought in via murky, protected private “merchants of death” such as the notorious former KGB operative, now with offices in the US, Victor Bout. Bout has been cited repeatedly in recent years for selling weapons across Africa. US Government officials strangely leave his operations in Texas and Florida untouched despite the fact he is on the Interpol wanted list for money laundering.”
It makes me sad to read comments of people who take the issue of China supplying guns and bombs to the Zimbabwean government, as an issue between American, other western governments against China.
I’m a Zimbabwean and I don’t want the Chinese government to supply these weapons to the Zimbabwe government, whether it is part of an old agreement or not. It is only the ordinary person who will die not these politicians. This is nothing to do with America, how can people support the Chinese supply guns and bombs to Mugabe. Why does he need guns and bombs when people are suffering through lack of food and medication? Who does he want to fight? Zimbabwe is not at war.
If Mugabe had won the elections, the results could have been out a long time ago. He lost and his Chinese friends want to give him guns and bombs. Zimbabweans do not eat guns and bombs. Those people who support China giving Mugabe guns and bombs will not be there in Zimbabwe when people are being killed.
This makes me feel so sad. Some of these people do not even have a clue on what life is like in Zimbabwe and they see it fit to support selling bombs and guns to this government.
You can read my blog http://www.townshipvibes.com and you will have a better idea on how things are like in Zimbabwe.
Anyone interested in knowing THE LARGE PICTURE of the young Chinese netizens, whose words have been frequently translated into Chinese on this forum by John, below is a good article to start with.
http://www.wyzxsx.com/Article/Class20/200804/37132.html
宋晓军：闪开，八零后“网络政治家”来了
无论你持什么样的观点，有一点无法否认的就是：在这次由奥运和西藏问题引发的风潮中，80后的网络一代突然登上了中国政治舞台的中心。由于我在4月14日写了篇“俄罗斯80后是如何反抗西方围堵的”的博客，并被新浪在当天推上了首页，一些朋友看了后开玩笑地对我说：你在“煽动”啊！对此我只能说这是高看了我。自10年前办“舰船模拟论坛”时（2000年转到新浪成为最早的军事论坛），我就知道年轻网民的力量，我从来不认为他们是可以被什么人操纵的。
其实俄罗斯的外部压力来的比中国早也比中国大，因此俄罗斯的80后反弹也比中国来的早一些，同时俄罗斯学者和官方对此的研究与引导也多一些。比如一年前俄罗斯学者提出了 “国际进入新对立时代”的概念；提出了“可控性动乱”的概念。比如他认为：信息革命带来了数十亿人的政治觉醒和参政的积极性，使得国际安全的可控性下降等等。他们还认为： 意识形态领域的竞争无疑将日益尖锐，民主已变成了相互攻击的武器，美国将重塑自己的吸引力。但令人遗憾的是，在竞争白热化的环境下，追求民主的崇高价值之争难免会以地缘政治冲突为特点。
俄罗斯的官员对80后网络一代也非常重视，尽管俄罗斯宽带普及率比中国差远了。2004年底，当乌克兰大学生打着写有英国哲学家柏克的箴言：“恶人得胜的惟一条件，就是好人袖手旁观”的标语，几周内不知疲倦地唱歌呼喊口号的时候，俄罗斯官方并没有在意。但当乌克兰发生了“橙色革命”后，官方被年轻人的力量震惊了。每年俄罗斯有150万青年学生毕业，这些年龄在16到28岁的年轻人占俄罗斯总人口的20 ％。如何赢得这些年轻人的心，成了官方的重要课题。他们提出了“主权民主”的概念（按照俄罗斯政治调研所所长马尔科夫的说法，“主权民主”这一概念是对那些在民主化幌子下建立依从性政治制度的“颜色革命”分子的原则性回答，也是对20世纪90年代俄罗斯按别国模式实行的那种“低劣民主化”的回答。），提出了 “软入侵”概念。如俄罗斯历史学家尤里”阿法纳斯耶夫（Yury Afanasyev）所说：“俄罗斯将成为什么样的国家，这很大程度上取决于她如何看待自己的历史。”于是官方在2007年出版了《俄罗斯现代史：1945-2006：历史教师教学手册》……等等。
这次我问过中国青少年研究中心的朋友，问他们这次抽样调查作了没有，他们说好像还没有。从社会学的角度看，年轻人容易感受到现行的文化价值观和规范对自己的压制和约束，他们总在寻找新的文化去冲击现行文化标准对自己的约束。而他们活动的平台就是网络，他们认为网络是属于他们文化阵地。最近有60后、50后的朋友与我谈起这次年轻人的表现，上来就说“义和团”、“红卫兵”这样的比喻，这显然是根据他们自己的文化体验说出来的简单化定义，从“超女一代”、“游戏一代”到“义和团”、“红卫兵”跨度有点儿大了吧。
我记得“舰船论坛”在7、8年前也有关于西藏问题的争论（好像是在军事历史坛子里），引经据典的贴子很多，那时很多都是60后和70后（现在我正让人找那时的贴子，如果能找出来看看一定很有意思）。但这次我注意到很多年轻人都愿意引用毛泽东1959年4月15日关于西藏问题的讲话（讲话全文点这里），并说毛是一个“大牛人”。他们为什么喜欢“大牛人”呢？会不会喜欢“大牛人”就一定会演变为“红卫兵”呢？我最近刚好问了一个80后，他说毛50年前对西藏的讲话太牛了。他认为毛在这么严肃的讲话中还不忘了给胡适回个“贴子”，这与今天的网络太相似了，这太逗了。
我觉得这些年轻人看毛与60后、50后的人看毛是不一样的，至少他们一直是把毛看成是一个人，与50、60后相比他们更平视毛。有些朋友跟我说主要还是启蒙的问题，但是按说这些年在网上对毛诋毁的文章很多，而对胡适吹捧的文章也很多，也够“启蒙”的了吧，可是年轻人为什么还是这样看问题呢？他们的文化选择标准是什么？这是值得研究的。因为文化选择的主体从来都是大众，从来不是那些躲在书斋里的圣贤。年轻人在选择新的文化标准以摆脱权威的控制时，一定也会仔细掂量的。
总之，面对“80后‘网络政治家’来了”这样一个现实，很多人会有很多的想法。最后我要说的是，当年舰船“军事历史”坛子里的老网友如果能把那时争论西藏问题的贴子找出来（好象是重磅炸弹、闲云孤鹤争论的比较多吧）就好了。
Palestinian government is HAMAS terrorest group ,backed by Al qaeda in Iran ,America sells very few arms we actually buy arms from other countries than sell them ,,
The website tingting keeps plugging, for the record, is Wu You Zhi Xiang/”Utopia”, and it’s a gathering point for fringe fanatics and would-be Maoist types, the ones who recently tried to use innuendo to create a hysteria campaign based on the publicly-accessible fact that the Southern Metropolis Daily newspaper runs advertisements from foreign-listed companies (as nearly all major Chinese newspapers today do, including those on ‘the left’).
So tingting, I’m sorry, I’m not going to be translating what you’ve recommended. Maybe you can tell us your thoughts on the key points in that piece?
Gee, is GVO censoring its readers?
Hi Charles. You’re not back to demonstrate troll behavior and hijack the conversation, I hope.
If you or anyone believes that their comments have been censored, they should immediately make their concerns known to GVO managing editors Georgia Popplewell and Solana Larsen.
America:
Are you being deliberately ignorant about the direction of arm sales?
BTW, Israel sells arms to China. Chew on that.
Incredible. 2 million people have starved to death in Zim since independence, sub-Saharan Africa’s richest country on a per-capita basis utterly destroyed, and yet there are those who will defend China’s role in events in Zimbabwe…
It’s odd that so many people are screaming at the “communists in China” when the whole point of arms sales is capitalistic in general.
I am also not sure why the Sinophobes do not see the doublestandard they are applying when it comes to wars by proxy, the support of dictatorships throughout the world, world dominance, and various global hot-button issues. If the goal is to clean the streets and there are multiple offenders in a room, do you go after the biggest and most influential offenders or the one who just started playing this game trying to emulate what others offenders have been doing for decades? I believe what is lacking here from Sinophobes is moral authority. You don’t even need to defend China’s arms sales to see the hypocrisy in the whole thing.
[...] - Chinese resentment over the China/Zimbabwe arms deal and international press attention to China’s role in Zimbabwe, translated by John Kennedy for Global Voices. [...]
Israel DOES NOT SELL ARMS TO CHINA JACK ASS ,Im a retired arms dealer Shut UP
Israel does not sell arms to china ,I personally know this Im a retired arms dealer ,What joke statement that was hahahahahahahahaha
Memo to self: stop feeding the troll.
@peanut butter…
Let me see:
Zim has starving people.
EU and US response: Economic Sanctions.
Good job!
http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/sanctions36.13187.html
FYI
There are no economic sanctions against Zim, only a travel ban on the ZANU-PF leadership. Don’t try to shift the burden of guilt; it was the Communist bloc and China in particular that assisted armed Rhodesia’s communist guerillas that have brought that country to ruin.
From Wikipedia:
“Under the leadership of Mugabe, land issues, which the liberation movement promised to solve, reemerged as the vital issue in the 1990s. Beginning in 2000, Mugabe began an effort to redistribute land from white holders (predominantly large farms) to 250,000 Africans.
Zimbabwe is currently experiencing a hard currency shortage, which has led to hyperinflation and chronic shortages in imported fuel and consumer goods. Mugabe’s critics blame his programme of land reform. However, Mugabe claims that massive financial isolation through American, British and EU legislation such as the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery act of 2001 is the actual cause of hyperinflation. Under ZDERA, the IMF and other financial institutions are prohibited from extending loans, credit or cancelling debt to the government of Zimbabwe. As Zimbabwe needs to import all its energy, and oil is paid for in US dollars, this made the country vulnerable to financial sanctions like ZDERA.”
Obviously the cause of the collapse of economy in Zimbabwe is their land reform, which irritated the white land owners. EU and US sanctioned Zimbabwe in return, caused the hyperinflation and starvation, killing millions of people. It’s a miracle that you still have the face to criticize China! In Chinese we call this “脸皮比城墙还厚”. Look at what Africa is like after hundreds of years of colonization and predatory from you robbers and vampires!
Under the leadership of Mugabe, land issues, which the liberation movement promised to solve, reemerged as the vital issue in the 1990s. Beginning in 2000, Mugabe began an effort to redistribute land from white holders (predominantly large farms) to 250,000 Africans.
Zimbabwe is currently experiencing a hard currency shortage, which has led to hyperinflation and chronic shortages in imported fuel and consumer goods. Mugabe’s critics blame his programme of land reform. However, Mugabe claims that massive financial isolation through American, British and EU legislation such as the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery act of 2001 is the actual cause of hyperinflation. Under ZDERA, the IMF and other financial institutions are prohibited from extending loans, credit or cancelling debt to the government of Zimbabwe. As Zimbabwe needs to import all its energy, and oil is paid for in US dollars, this made the country vulnerable to financial sanctions like ZDERA.
Reading all of these comments are very disturbing to me I must admit. I think I have a different view of all of this due to the fact that 1. I have been to Zimbabwe a few times and maintain contact with some of my friends there and 2. My wife is actually Chinese. We live in Texas so yes I am an American…but more importantly I am a human and citizen of the world, which I, in effect, hold in higher esteem than my national “identity.” Here is the reality of the situation, Zimbabwe is dying and it is being murdered by its own leader. Most Zimbabweans have actually left or are leaving due to the fact that nobody can afford food and if you can it is hard to find any food to buy. The inflation is up so high you can buy a loaf of bread with a solid brick of currency. The situation there is extremely bad, and when I think about my friends there it makes me incredibly sorrowful. The problem with the whole “China sells arms to Zimbabwe”, issue is of a two fold nature. One is Mugabe’s previous behavior patterns and the second has to do with the current situation of the people. Historically Mugabe has always, and I really do mean always, used lethal violence, terror, beatings, destruction of property, confiscation of lands and various related tactics to maintain his position of power in the country. I have seen these things first hand. Now as it turns out this year he may have and probably did lose the elections. Since Mugabe does not want to cede power he is using his control of the courts to hide the vote results. Now as many people have noted via emails and internet blogs and as international observers, he is using this time to round up the military again. So as you can see considering his violent past, this is a very bad time to have any kind of weapons shipped over there. One could estimate that there is a 100% probability that those weapons will be used against innocent civilians that legally voted him out of office. I do not say this as an arrogant westerner, or as one who is brainwashed by CNN or any other western media (I rarely watch the news…it makes me depressed.), nor do I say this as a bandwagon sensationalist stirring up resentment of China’s arrival on the world stage. I say these things as a person concerned for the hurting, desperate people of Zimbabwe, a people who are about to have what looked like a hope for peace, a light at the end of the tunnel, get washed away by violence. Most people are taking this as an opportunity to jump on the Anti-China bandwagon that most of the world is enjoying right now. But I want to submit this as a chance to have both sides reflect on what really matters here. As for my wife this is a very hard time for her, and for us, as we get into some very hard and serious debates about the subjects of :Tibet, Burma, Taiwan, Sudan, and now Zimbabwe. The Chinese are taking a turn for the better as far as national prosperity is concerned. And the Chinese educational system does a very good job of creating very patriotic and nationalistic citizens. However as my wife stated, “Being proud of your countries accomplishments and its future is ok, but allowing that pride and nationalistic fervor to blind you to others sufferings is not.” We argued for a few days before she said this. I can understand how the Chinese feel as the world essentially picks on them. China has accomplished alot and has alot to be proud of. However, I ask all of you who are Chinese, do not allow this pride to lead you into a destructive path. This is what happened to America. Our government hurt people, and the people of this country either did not know or did not care. Chanting for the destruction for another country or its people is not the way to go. I can understand the anger and frustration you feel, believe me I hear it from my wife. I ask of you, just as I ask of her to not think or believe everything that you are told. To not think like a subject of a specific government but to think as if you were to live in the other persons shoes. I ask the world to think critically about what they are told by their various media outlets, and I ask the Chinese to really consider what is at stake before placing national pride first.
USA,UK patrol all over the world! sell weapons! start war in Iraq! kill kids! they are angel, they doing all of these for peace, human rights, for the happiness of the human beings!
That China sell weapons in an old contractual agreement, It means China is devil!
How democratic and freedom you are!
How hypocrisy and double standard you are!
BTW, “Its time for America to get out of China And shut the cinese econamey down now !”
try to solve your economic crisis firstly!
and I quote…
As I explained in my earlier article, in 2001 the United States of America promulgated a law called the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act (ZIDERA hereafter). That enactment empowered the US President to instruct US representatives on the multilateral lending agencies – such as the IMF, World Bank and Africa Development Bank, among others – to vote against credit facilities (in all their various forms) to Zimbabwe, until the latter improves its human rights record, observance of the rule of law, holds free and fair elections etc. We know the list, and the accusations against Mugabe and Zanu PF in this regard are not without merit. ZIDERA therefore subtly introduces economic sanctions against Zimbabwe.
The US influence over the IMF, World Bank and Africa Development Bank, among others, is immense because of the size of its shareholding, vote and major donor status, respectively. There are many scholars that have criticised these institutions for being conduits used by the US for its international foreign policy. But I digress.
ZIDERA does not say “we are now imposing economic sanctions against Zimbabwe.” The enactment simply allows the US to prevent Zimbabwe from accessing finance from certain multilateral lending institutions. That’s smart. Brazenly declaring that the US is imposing sanctions on an impoverished developing African nation would be bad public relations. And people will ask questions: why Zimbabwe? Why not the Middle Eastern countries where women are not allowed to vote, where there is no freedom of speech, where there is torture, etc? Why not countries like Pakistan where the current President came to power through a coup? Why not Egypt where presidential elections are predetermined? Why not Uganda where there is no multiparty politics? Why not Ethiopia where elections are rigged, students detained indefinitely, where torture is rife, etc? Why not China, or Libya – the two countries currently doing roaring trade with the US and EU among others, though there is no democracy, or basic human rights observance? I do not for a minute say that because Zimbabwe is no different from other countries there must be no consequences for gross human right violations, election rigging, etc. I do think it is wrong to cause an economic implosion simply to rid Zimbabwe of Mugabe.
It can be argued that what caused the imposition of economic sanctions are Mugabe’s policies of expropriating white farmland, rigging elections and human rights violations. True: but is it right to use economic muscle to blockade Zimbabwe (mark not Mugabe) from the international credit markets as punishment? Who suffers, Mugabe or the people of Zimbabwe, who have struggled to rid themselves of their leader? If that is the current standard, why isn’t half the world the subject of similar “smart sanctions”? Food for thought!
What is the economic cost of ZIDERA to Zimbabwe?
Have the economic sanctions impacted adversely on Zimbabwe and can the cost be quantified? I do not have the figures, and I fear, neither does the hapless Zimbabwe government. But there is an adverse economic cost and this can be ascertained by analysing the consequences of the US enactment.
ZIDERA was a significant milestone. From the date of its promulgation, any Zimbabwe foreign currency loan application made to the IMF, World Bank, the Africa Development Bank, among others, stood to be scuttled by the US, directly through its vote, or indirectly through its influence within the institutions. On the international credit markets, with its junk investment status, Zimbabwe became an untouchable, because of its loan defaults and also because of the natural consequences following the promulgation of ZIDERA.
It also meant that any loan application made by Zimbabwe to any multilateral or bilateral international lending agency would carry an exorbitantly high cost, if they were willing to do business at all. This economic cost is quantifiable.
Further, the US position, expressed through ZIDERA meant that Zimbabwe would be unable to reschedule repayments of its debts due to the multilateral lending agencies. Practically speaking, debts became due and payable. And this explains why Zimbabwe paid £120 million to the IMF, and could not reschedule its IMF debt. That is a quantifiable cost.
In addition, again because of US and EU foreign policy, none of Zimbabwe’s international debts have been cancelled, as have those of other countries. It may be argued that Mugabe is to blame. True. But I ask again, is it right to penalise Zimbabweans because of the acts (mostly against Zimbabweans) of Mr. Mugabe?
There have been asset freezes by the EU, and it is reported that the US will also impose an asset freeze in the near future on people or companies associated with ZANU PF. Companies, whether ZANU PF associated or not, contribute to Zimbabwe’s GDP, its economic and industrial development and alleviate unemployment. The economic and social cost to Zimbabwe of these asset freezes is real and can be quantified.
It is on the basis of the above views that I opine that the sanctions regime has had an adverse economic impact on Zimbabwe, and the cost can, and should be quantified.
Others will argue that sanctions have had a negligible economic impact on Zimbabwe because the country was already in arrears with the IMF in particular. It is arguable. However, in the absence of ZIDERA Zimbabwe would have been able to negotiate with the IMF with a view to reschedule or cancel its debt payment, or apply for more finance. I believe that the impact can also be quantified.
On travel sanctions, it is arguable that prohibiting Mugabe, his wife and other ZANU PF members from travelling overseas saves the country much needed foreign currency. Probable; but does prohibiting the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe Governor from travelling to Australia, New Zealand and other countries to enter into business discussions with Zimbabweans in the Diaspora not have a negative economic impact on Zimbabwe? Let’s discuss.
Zimbabwe’s economic problem is mainly manifested through a critical foreign currency crisis. Only yesterday, Trevor Manuel – South Africa’s Minister of Finance – noted that Zimbabwe required a major injection of capital.
Ms. Nyathi argues that South Africa stands ready to give Zimbabwe a loan. True. I have argued elsewhere that both ZANU PF and MDC’s positions on the South African loan offer are unwise. Zimbabwe needs the money being offered by South Africa. ZANU PF’s fear that the loan is a Trojan horse through which the MDC will obtain political power is just another example of ZANU PF’s paranoia and of how it has failed Zimbabwe. The MDC’s argument that the loan must contain conditions forcing ZANU PF to enter into political negotiations, repeal certain legislation, new elections, etc, is also objectionable, because it elevates its own political ambitions above the national interest.
To all those that say Mugabe has mismanaged the economy since 1980; I say you’re right, I agree. I also say that Mugabe has mismanaged the current economic crisis which has been caused in part, and exacerbated by the economic sanctions currently in place against Zimbabwe.
Should sanctions be lifted? If lifting sanctions will alleviate famine, the HIV/AIDS crisis, allow Zimbabwe to slowly reintegrate into the global economy once again, boost the economy, however slight; my response would be yes, they must be lifted. Will sanctions be lifted? No, I am under no illusion that they will be lifted until Mugabe leaves office.
Hi John:
Thank you for your translation. There are plenty of things going on through out the world relate to china recently and it is so regretable that most of them cause conflict spreading from offline to online. It is not a issue that whether chinese people or western people who initiated or must be responsible for this topic. There are killing, starvation, pollution, human right abuse all over the world. Chinese government and people may be the cause of some, but not whole. Resolvation needs cooperation and negotiation base on mutual respect and understanding. Brawling, Jeering with each other will not do ANYTHING good by seed hatred, sample as the 3rd reply by Mr.Bill, “These are true faces of China. The world must wake up.” There are 1.3 billion people living in China and hundreds of millions of them can freely explore the internet. They are diversified and you can’t make a judgement after deliberate picking a few comment. do every American support Guantanamo? Can I make a topic like “American defend Guantanamo human right disaster” by some collection of comment? What would be the reaction by American? We must admit that there are overreaction and aggressive words all over(I bet I can find some bitter than yours), but just the topic like this can only make it worse. Chinese people are encouraged to communiated with world and there are countless of misunderstanding with different culture and value. I personally wish more solution-oriented post here not simply charging. Since all of us care more about Zimbabwe people. Why don’t we collect their voice and trust the UN?
Please stopping arguing and your time wasting here can’t help anyone
@John Kennedy: “I actually spent a full day scouring the internet for more Chinese-language perspective on China’s involvement in Zimbabwe (that has been published within the past week).”
http://www.chinanews.com.cn/gj/gjzj/news/2008/04-24/1230090.shtml
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-04-24/112615421281.shtml
http://news.cctv.com/military/20080422/106450.shtml
Per your request. Come-on John, it’s not that hard to find for a noob like me. I’m sure you can find tons of stuff if you do it with an open mind.
peaceplease,
You are very considerate, but sometimes things are not so simple. If other powers are villains China can’t live in this world being a good man. This time I do agree it’s not good to ship arms to Zimbabwe, although I don’t think without this cargo of arms Mugabe will fall short of arms if he does decide to take the evil path. However, China indeed has done nothing wrong in fulfilling an old contract, it’s inconsiderate at the most.
After years of unfair accusations on China regarding Sudan, some overreactions from netizens are no surprise. The cargo has been ordered back AFAIK.
This is a good sampling of comments–it shows just how radical Chinese nationalism can be in defending its genocides in Darfur and Tibet.
To all those that have said that arms sales to Zimbabwe didn’t break any laws, you are absolutly right but this doesn’t mean that you didn’t do anything wrong. Go beyond the black and white of following or not following the rules, the world is so much more complicated than that.
Beijing has realized, and its netcitizens should too, that you can’t play with the big boys and not interfere with other countries issues, look at the reversal (although somewhat minor) that Beijing took on the treatment of Dafur.
More weapons in an already unstable country is just adding fuel to a fire that we need to put out. There is no disputing that China is going to be the leader of tomorrow. Don’t make the same mistake that the US has made for so many years and be ignorant of your surroungings.
My jaw dropped on the floor, when I read America claimed he was a retired arm dealer. Clearly he believed all the weapons he dealt with have eyes to identify the bad guys vs good people. Again, he is here to preach.
How ironic it is.
Regarding the Zimbabwe arm deal, clearly there is no international embargo or sanction. It is legitimate for CHina to sell weapon there. Just that the recent electron in Zimbabwe entered into a crisis that the current president might refuse to step down, then the arm deal seems to be morally very wrong.
However, from business standpoint of view, if it was ordered, it has to be delivered. What is wrong with that?
Of course, to many people, at the current electron crisis of Zimbabwe, condemn China to engage with the existing president. The root cause of different attitudes China and Western countries have towards Zimbabwe lies in one thing:
- Whether should we export MY value to other countries and people?
To China, it is business. No exportation of any value, moral standards. Well, to western countries, Value, Moral Standards should be exported, even with force. Those against the value and moral standards they export are simple evil and should be condemned. That resulted in some strange situation like Osama was ever trained by CIA.
I was very touched by peaceplease’s comment. I trust that he is serious and sincere. But I need to correct one thing about Chinese national pride. I dont think it is due to the education of nationalism. It should be part of Chinese culture. Chinese has an old saying ” Son should not complain the ugliness of mother, dog should not complain about the poverty of home.”
John, clearly, some comments here pointed at your instigation of the selection of aggressive comments to emphasize more on the negative side of Chinese netizans. At a result, I saw seeds of fire, instead of seeds of peaceful, rational debates. Your chinese should be good enough to locate more rational comments than the fanatic ones, in my opinion. You dont want people to dump their angers here to make this place a battle field, right?
Or, do you?
Rational debates will make the content go deeper.
Before we make any comments, we must make the points clear that
1. The president made the decision years ago that the land properties should be nationalized and returned to the local people, what did the UK pre-colonized westerners, who owned the properties, do? - requested the western governments to give Zimbabwe pressure and and those governments warned of penalty headed by USA, UK.
2. Was the Zimbabwe government’s decision right? and what about the Zim people’s reaction? Hard to say. But it might be a correct decision to the people, as an independent country, both in political and economic independence. Years ago Zim’s economy were owned by the few westerners after the nation’s independence. Over 70% profits were also owned by them. This might be the key point that led the president to make the greatest change in history, i.e. free of control by westerners.
4. Through years of economic sanctions, Zim’s economy is facing bankrupt, with the world’s highest inflation, not only for the low efficiency, and for the internal struggle between parties.
5. What’s the attitude of those African countries? - Most of them supported Zim in ethics, but they can’t support by way of economic aid for fear of western countries.
6. What did the Chinese do? In fact, China did a little but not enough to change its eco situation.
7. What are the western countries doing? By way of supporting the opposition party in the new election, by way of sanctioning zim economy that led to inflation. Finally drive the president way and change the new leader who’d listen to western countries. Those will come back to Zimbabwe and continue their rulling part.
Although it’s not clear after the voting date, I don’t think Mugabe would win. He is not powerful enough to fight against US, UK. He’s gonna lose, and US-UK will be back.
Now back to China’s weapon to Zimbabwe, the contract was made last year and shipment time of arrival around this month. It has nothing to do with what the US said to support the zim government. But I should say it might not be a proper time!
It’s very easy to make it clear -
If the election result came out as it scheduled one month ago, what would happen to this shipment from China? Of course, nothing! China just fulfills its normal contract!
Some young westerners know little about the international relationship between countries. They only learned about their glorious history of so many colonies in the whole world and just remember himself.
Just questions below:
When you pointed out Darfur problem, what the hell is the problem?
Did Chinese kill any person there?
Did any of your teachers taught you what your country did and how many people were killed when you contry occupied so many countries as colonies and how many natural resources were taken back to your country?
Forget your Darfur!
Who is making the petro price so high? China? Stupid! China did import petro, but for what? Mostly for the cheap products for selling the your country! Who obtained the highest profits? China? Never! Ask your country’s business.
Who led to China’s serious pollution? Your enterpreneurs! Yes, they moved their heavy polluted factories to China from your homeland.
Now the only thing you may, or must remember, is that -
Those trying to stop China becoming an economic and millitary giant will eventually be losers.
一些西方年轻人实在是对国际关系知之甚少。他们只知道自己国家曾经有过的辉煌-拥有世界上那么多的殖民地。他们只知道自己。
只想问以下的问题：
你提到达尔富尔问题，你知道达尔富尔究竟是什么问题？
中国人在达尔富尔杀人了吗？
你们的老师是否教过你：你们的国家都做过些什么，在你们国家占领这么多地方进行殖民统治杀过多少人，又有多少资源被掠夺回你们国家？
别再提什么达尔富尔问题！
是谁把石油价格抬得这么高？中国？笨蛋！中国的确进口石油，可进口石油又为何？大部分是用来生产低价产品买到你们的国家！那又是谁赚取了高额利润？中国？算了吧！还是去问问你们国家的生意人吧。
是谁导致中国的严重污染？是你们的企业家！是的，他们把高污染的企业从你们的祖国往中国移。
如今，也许你只需要记得，或必须要记得的一件事，就是 –
那些试图阻止中国成为经济、军事强国的人最终会失败。
aCe,
You are generally right. Just one thing, you can’t expect all Chinese netizens to think about the international relationship and strategy so thoroughly before they talk, just like we can’t require all U.S. Assistants to the President for National Security Affairs to know that Nepal is not a part of China.
terry #46 writes:
[in translation]
Some young Westerners really don’t know much at all about international relations. They only know that their own countries were once glorious, possessing so many colonies around the world. They only know themselves.
I only want to ask the following questions:
When you mention Darfur, do you actually know what Darfur’s problems are?
Have Chinese people killed anyone in Darfur?
Did or did not your teachers instruct you on: what your countries have done, how many people have been killed under colonial rule, carried out by your countries in the places it occupies, or how much of their resources gets plundered and sent back to your countries?
Stop talking about a Darfur problem!
Who is it that sets oil prices so high? China? You eggheads! Sure, China imports oil, but what’s wrong with that? Most of it goes towards producing the low-price products which your countries then buy! So who’s actually making the high profits off that? China? Whatever, it’s the businesspeople from your countries that I should be asking.
Who is it that makes China so heavily polluted? It’s your corporations! Yes, they relocate high-polluting enterprises from your motherlands to China.
Nowadays, you only need to remember—or maybe really must remember—one thing, and that is that those who attempt to stop China from becoming a country with a strong economy and military will ultimately fail.
@Search4T (#39)
I don’t translate news reports, sorry. Noob.
要有大国心态
中国，要有大国心态！！！！
what is china going to do with the THOUSANDS OF protesters that will fly in for the olympics !! SHOOT THEM With a Israile gun hahahahahahahahahah
@John Kennedy
Maybe this site will be qualified for Ur time.
http://www.cchere.net/board/%C7%E0%CA%B7%B2%E8%C9%E7/
The server is abroad but a quite big part of its users are actually living in China, others are mostly chinese too.
And about the whole arms shipping thing, here is my 2 cents:
It’s BAD, period.
The Overreacting of the Westerners is totally hypocrisy, period.
Yes, we should care about the people. Yes, we should stop doing bussiness with a Tyrant like Mugabe - But did the rest of the world just realize this shitty situation of Zimbabwean Yesterday? They are dying years over years from famine & ongoing military conflict for GOD’s sake! Yet the best U can come up with is Freaking sanction!
For CCP’s weak defense, we didn’t only sell arms to Zimbabwe, there are also a lot of free food shipping into this country from China. And from Chinese GOV’s perspective, we don’t make Mugabe kill people, he just chose to do so to grasp on power, and it’s Zimbabwean’s bussiness to decide should him been overthrown. Chinese Government only deal with its lawful Government. It’s called “No Interfere” Policy and We take it seriously sometimes too seriously.
John,
“The website tingting keeps plugging, for the record, is Wu You Zhi Xiang/”Utopia”, and it’s a gathering point for fringe fanatics and would-be Maoist types.”
Perfectly all right that you keep your hands free from certain links or views. But I must say that Utopia is one of the most reputable and rational vanguard liberal left book forum in China.
On fringe? yes, most of its articles challenge mainstream ideology. Fanatics? No. A dozen of its authors are renowed intellectuals, economists and sociologists, writing on a variety of urgent issues facing China in the best “western” tradition of cool minded critical analysis, including the former editors of dushu, a widely recognized important intellectual journal in China. I suspect that you drew you conclusion without even bothering to look what’s in it.
“Would-be Maoist types.”
Wow. How much do you know Mao? How much do you know ordinary Chinese’s view of Mao today? Here is a good answer from Jeffrey Wasserstrom, a professor of History at the University of California, Irvine.
enjoy this radio link from Chicago http://www.wbez.org/content.aspx?audioID=17615.
Nice to see that nuance is all but dead in discussions on international relations.
Thanks for another excellent post, John. I think many of the people who are angrily reacting to this article are doing so out of embarrassment. If people are going to be brave enough to post this hate on Chinese discussion boards, they should be brave enough to defend it when it is translated for the world to see. If your country is losing face due to the behavior of your netizens, then perhaps you should encourage those netizens to calm down a bit.
On the other hand, I do have a number of good Chinese friends who are nothing like some of the rapid, nationalistic netizens that seem to be all over China now. They are capable of having a reasoned, calm debate over issues currently affecting China. It would be interesting to see a more moderate slice of China’s online community… or is this kind of thing the norm?
Anyway, it may be a moot point. It seemed to me that when I was in China, saving face was much more important than facing/addressing problems. Until this changes, reasonable debate will be impossible, because the mere acknowledgment of even the possibility of China being in the wrong will continue to be met with angry outbursts.
Americans aren’t perfect, but we can criticize our country. It was our media who broke the story on Abu Ghraib, and our citizens who were outraged. Americans protest the Iraq War every day. No government is perfect, and if the Chinese government is in the wrong, Chinese people should not be afraid to say so. Your government’s actions only reflect badly on you when you unconditionally support them.
John, i totally agree with Eric Hu.
Posting some irresponsible comments which are not unusual at all in China(in fact about every single topic there are always huge amount of ‘crap’comments)is not going to help the communication between the chinese and the west. Given the facts that china bas been blamed for human rights abuse in tibet with some misleading/distorted reports, it is understanable that some people react extremely, usually i just skip all those irresponsible comments because they are just a waste of my time.
So, some stupid comments (sorry about the s word) you posted, do they represent the whole chinese netizens or the chinese people? No. Do they make some people think that chinese are cold-blooded? Yes.
I am a chinese and i don’t think it is a proper time to ship the weapon to Zimbabwe whether there is a contract or not and i do believe many chinese hold the same opinion. Pls see:
http://www.newsmth.net/bbstcon.php?board=MilitaryView&gid=448072
http://www.newsmth.net/bbstcon.php?board=MilitaryView&gid=447947&start=447947&pno=1
XniteMan,
Thanks for the laugh. Case in point. Don’t follow their lead.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:41 am nostalgiphile: 41
This is a good sampling of comments–it shows just how radical Chinese nationalism can be in defending its genocides in Darfur and Tibet.
-> What genocides? First, there are no evidence of the 1.2 Million killed in Tibet; a free tibet person admitted as much, and Chinese killed nobody in Sudan.
I’m a black American and I used to be pro China but after this I have to say F@@K the Chinese govt and F@@K any Chinese who agrees to selling weapons to a warlord that kills its own black people. It shows that the Chinese don’t respect blacks. In fact I know you look down on us. How can you sell weapons to a state thats at war with CIVILIANS??? Meaning these people kill children and women. Just because America has done this in the past does not make it right for you to do it. You claim to be Africa’s friends but you treat the people like sh@t over there and you look down on us. You just want Africa’s resources like every other nation in the world France, England, Belgium, and America.
It seems like you want to be like whites and do everything they do, but when they sh@t all over you, you whine and complain. You sleep with the dragon and you get burnt.
Africa and blacks have never done anything bad to you people, and this is how you treat us? You call us names in China(Hei Gui), don’t even allow us to get jobs in China because we are black(No matter our education level), think you are more superior than we are.
To hell with all of your nationalistic crap. If you don’t respect others how do you expect others to respect you?
I used to defend China but now I just lost respect for your country.
Ok we need to understand freedom of speech
It has limitations
Take these examples:
Can you shout obscene language at your boss or co-workers with or without any reason? You may defend that it’s your freedom of speech, well you will get a serious warning or get FIRED! Free speech is limited by company policy.
You can say anything on the web, but can you take an amplifier and shout from the top of buiding? You will be charged misdemeaner.. . limitation of speech,
Can you stand in public and speak loudly on a speaker fantising about things, intent to overthrow of the government, plan murder, it’s your free speech, the police will find you in no time!
Can you tell your wife that she’s FAT and ugly? It’s your free speech, but I am sure you will get a nasty slap on the face followed by a nasty divorce!
Wang traitor girl chose to stand on the tibet side, well it’s her free speech, but she violated one of the fundamental morality, that is being a traitor to her country!
Well you get the point. . .
Freedom of speech has many limitations. we have to abide by the local laws, company rules, city law, county law, state law, and federal laws. It’s endless. So to say free speech does not come with any consequences nor responsibilities is a absurd!
The man wrote: “You just want Africa’s resources like every other nation in the world France, England, Belgium, and America.”
This is true and should be true. It’s a government’s job to secure resources, foreign or domestic, so to benefit its citizens. It would be odd to assume that the Chinese government should put the welfare of its own people over the welfare of people in a foreign country.
Yes Terry be like a mindless drone and believe everything your nationalist brothers say. You have messed with the wrong kind of people. Have you forgot about the civil rights movement? Without that Chinese would have never been able to have equal rights in America. You are playing with fire. Just like you are toting nationalism, us blacks have nationalism too. We don’t just have one country we have a continent. Blacks in America, France, Canada, England.
You have not seen REAL nationalism until you see BLACK nationalism. Malcolm X would be turning in his grave right about now if he heard how the Chinese have betrayed us.
The man, #60 and #63,
From what you r saying, it seems that you r from USA, and you r a young man. Also you r still in China or used to be there. Meanwhile you did know something about China.
For the very topic of ‘black’ problem with China, I just suggest you not mention it any more.
Seriously, you used to be on China part, but not now. Just because of your theory ‘Using Chinese supplied weapons to kill black’, which I can’t agree to it all, you’re welcome to think about this topic deeply.
Think it over,step by step:
1. China is not the first country to supply weapons to Africa. Right?! OK. Who, or which country or countries did supply weapons there? Tell us.
2. Who required China to supply the weapons, and asked to sign the normal contract(s) with China?
3. If not signing the concerned contract with China, would the one (government from Africa) not to sign another country with other country? i.e., Without this contract with China, the concerned government will be absolutely signing a contract with other country!
4. If the contract is between Zim and USA or EU countries, is there a ban from you, or from USA themselves?
5. If the concerned country has a good relationship with USA, and has the contract with China, do you think the shipment will be banned?
Hope you could understand the above, and finally realize that it is NOT simply the shipment of weapon at all.
It’s the problem of the government who supports!
Without China’s weapons to Africa, Africa still buy weapons from other countries!
If Zim’s Mugabe is NOT for the country’s independence in economy, and returns its policy of adopting the old UK colonial supporting 80% economy operated by the white businessmen, and NOT against USA, UK, nothing would happen!
Hi, The man, yound man. I am over 50. and I still remember the excellent relationship between the black Africa and China. There is NO racial problem at all.
Next part, I will tell you more.
Be patient, not be angry about the thing you met in China.
————————————-
Again, forget the fxxk Darfur, human rights, and internal affairs chained with Olympics.