Global Voices Online

Countries:

China

Topics:

Ethnicity, Governance, Religion, Politics

Languages:

Chinese

This post is also available in:

bn:

চীন: দালাই লামার সাথে আসন্ন আলোচনা নিয়ে নানারকম মত...

116 Responses to
“China: Different Voices on the Upcoming Talk with Dalai Lama”

1. April 26th, 2008 at 6:54 am
   Ur Chinese friend:
   1

   Dalai’s main strategy to further his agenda was through non-violent protests. What’s happening now is that the pro-Tibet protesters are outnumbered by pro-China protesters around the world. The Pro-Tibetan protesters also are having problems containing their violent outbursts.

   Now it’s a good time for China to talk with Dalai, but the question is whether Dalai has enough influence over Tibetan Independent folks. I also wonder just how can Dalai stop the so called “cultural genocide” which seems to be Dalai’s number one issue nowadays. Even if the Chinese government restricts Han immigration into Tibet, Tibet will be modernized regardless. The presumed Han discrimination and income disparity will also continue as long as Tibetans refuse to learn mandarin or start their own businesses.

2. April 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
   Kai:
   2

   Excellent. If it happens, it’ll definitely be a step in the right direction. Here’s to hoping both sides can learn to face reality, learn some humility, and try to compromise for a better future for all involved.

3. April 26th, 2008 at 15:01 pm
   Knights:
   3

   UR Chinese friend says it well.
   I am not against China to talk with Dalai. If he cares about tibetans, he should think for their best interest to learn mandarin and go toward modernization. We Chinese come to the U.S., we have to learn to speak English in order to make a good living. It applies to tibetans as well.

4. April 26th, 2008 at 15:19 pm
   subjectivelistener:
   4

   I think it is a smart move.

   In fact, I would even suggest Chinese government to invite Dalai Lama to join the opening ceremony of Olympic games.

   Why? Because, Dalai Lama claimed that he supports the games. Also, if Dalai Lama agrees to attend, those western politicians have no more leverage to say boycotting any more.

   In the international politics, you will be in control of situation if you dont follow the routines. It will break the glasses of those Sinophobers.

5. April 26th, 2008 at 15:23 pm
   cerebus:
   5

   Very good. I share Kai’s wishes.

   I wonder if mediation will be considered, and if so, who would China accept in such a position? When talks begin in earnest they should be open to scrutiny. There’s too much distrust.

   Some news reports cite external pressure as motivation for this positive development, but I believe the incredible number of moderate, rational and peaceful Chinese people whom I have encountered, both online and offline, played the most significant role. I have immense hope for China, and it’s inevitable future role in the world because of this, largely, unheard majority.

6. April 26th, 2008 at 22:58 pm
   truth:
   6

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas&feature=related

7. April 27th, 2008 at 1:12 am
   Laurence:
   7

   达赖的目的很明显也不会改变，他想重新获取西藏的统治权利，可惜对他来说，自从西藏解放之后一切就万劫不复了！

   政府和达赖谈，作为小市民我无从得知他们要谈论什么，至少我知道，这样的对话意义不大，最多只是给西方一个表态而已，其他的问题不没有什么可谈的，要达赖放弃他的目的绝对不可能，当然让政府对达赖让步，更是绝对不可能。

   作为国人，我觉得现在中国真的很棒。我从来没有对国家对政府有过什么愤愤不满，我工资不高是因为我个人能力的问题而不是政府打压了我，我没有信仰是因为我不要一个不存在的信仰来引导我，我会受到一些不公正的待遇是因为有些东西不完善也因为我没去争取，….，总之，我很少埋怨我的政府对我有什么不公正，尽管有些。

   作为一个中国人，我没有反对这个国家的理由，当然如果有人公然反对我的国家，他就是我们的敌人！

   从深层次上讲，政府和达赖的对话没有任何意义，唯一的目的就是做给西方看。

8. April 27th, 2008 at 21:31 pm
   Peter Karhatsy:
   8

   Time has shown that China has evolved into a goverment as sinister as the rest of our “First” world goverments, controlling the media and it’s citzens like puppets to further their own agenda.

   I wish the rest of the world was as intolerant of imperialism as I am.

   USA out of IRAQ - Let them work out their own freedom now, we got them started.

   China out of the COUNTRY of TIBET - Tibetan culture is a global asset, not an asian one. They have their own language, lifestyle and belief system.

   If the Chinese start going after a Christian nation next, things will be different.

   Does anyone care?

9. April 28th, 2008 at 2:10 am
   Nano:
   9

   @Peter Karhatsy> “USA out of IRAQ - Let them work out their own freedom now, we got them started.”

   What about non-native Americans out of USA and let the Red Indians have their own homeland?

   Do you actually care?

10. April 28th, 2008 at 3:38 am
    Peter Karhatsy:
    10

    Nano, that is not current events. Please try to stay focused. I understand that for every constructive comment, there must be an equally useless one, so thanks for that.

    Personally, if I could go back in time, I would warn every tribe. At least then it would’ve been a fair fight.

11. April 28th, 2008 at 3:39 am
    A Chinese:
    11

    华人们越愤怒,达赖谈判的筹码就越少.
    如今不像89年了,谈判的主动权显然在中国政府这边.
    达赖集团,你们又一次失策了….

12. April 28th, 2008 at 6:46 am
    cerebus:
    12

    On the one hand we should welcome talks, on the other we should keep up the pressure. Just like the Chinese government is trying to build up their bargaining power by keeping up the anti-Dalai rhetoric, we should also set a high price. I hope the Chinese understand, when people ask for full independence it makes the possibility of limited autonomy more likely. The Tibetans have long ago compromised, but as far as I can see China has NEVER given anything back. There can not be real negotiation when one side refuses to compromise before talks even start.

    Pro-Tibetans: we should unite in a few ways:

    We should refuse to take part in endless discussions about whether Tibet was part of China before 1950. It’s a pointless discussion where neither side can claim any more convincing “facts” than the other. More importantly: it doesn’t matter. We are concerned about Tibet and China NOW. We should focus on the CURRENT situation. Getting involved in this discussion draws attention away from the relatively modest issue of getting cultural self-determination for Tibetans NOW.

    Secondly we should stay away completely from any discussions about the Tibet feudal system before 1950. As far as I can see, yes, it was terrible. We should make it clear the Tibetan leadership has abandoned that system in the 1960’s and we should make clear our opposition to returning to those values IF Tibet ever achieves autonomy in the future. We should not be hypocrites, but assure everyone we would then just as vociferously attack a neo-feudal Tibetan regime.

    Thirdly, I think we should make clear what the issues are, and that those issues also relate to the rest of China. For me it is cultural self-determination, and this should be sought for all minorities everywhere in the world, and of course in the rest of China too. But there is also the issue of freedom of information and expression, that I believe will benefit everyone in China, and even strengthen them in the long run, especially in the fight against corruption.

    Lastly: we should start singing a refrain from the hypocrite’s opera when people accuse “the west” of similar atrocities, in Iraq, Afghanistan, former colonies, native Americans, etc: It goes like this:

    I opposed the invasion of Iraq AND the occupation of Tibet. You only oppose the invasion of Iraq. That makes YOU the hypocrite.

    I think our Chinese friends find it difficult to understand the amount of resistance we DO express to exactly these same “western” atrocities.

    I would still like to know who China might consider a worthy mediator if talks started in earnest?

13. April 28th, 2008 at 7:24 am
    Nano:
    13

    Peter Karhatsy,

    What’s so constructive about your comments that “China out of the COUNTRY of TIBET - Tibetan culture is a global asset, not an asian one.”?

    Tibetan culture belongs to the Tibetans who are citizens of China. Dalai Lama had admitted that Tibet is part of China, and he didn’t want independence but only greater autonomy. USA, France, etc, have recognized that Tibet is part of China, so there is no current issue about ‘China out of Tibet’.

    Tibetans are an ethnic minority and do have dissatifactions and grievances with their government. But that also happens to most minorities in every other countries. Why not let the Chinese citizens themselves settle the issues with their own government? Of course, Westerners, being the usual trouble makers, wouldn’t let off this opportunity to stir up the inter-ethnic animosities.

    So Peter, if you had not initially make silly ‘constructive’ comments or suggestions (#8), I bet you would easily get more reasoned responses

14. April 28th, 2008 at 17:30 pm
    ted:
    14

    cerebus,

    What I don’t understand is why you are so concerned with parts of China that have nothing to do with XiZang(Tibet). You want to free them too? Thanks for your conern, we don’t give a hoot about what you have to say because you are a nobody. It’s China for Chinese, it’s none of your business. What passport do you have? American, Canadian, British??? Not Tibetan? Oh, Tibet is not a country, provinces can’t issue passports.

    You can make up millions and even billions of directives on how to achieve Tibet independence, and preconditions of talking to the Chinese government. You think the Chinese are kissing your ass by saying they will talk to you? Actually, not you, you are not even Tibetan, remember no Tibetan passport? Even Dalai is still a Chinese refugee in India, so he the Chinese can talk to. Oh, wait, Dalai just became French, so forget him too. Anyways, it really doesn’t matter what you have to say or do, Tibet will never be independent. I agree with you there is no need to mention things before 1950s, only the current events matter. Currently, Tibet IS part of China. This will not change. You think you can overthrow the current Chinese government to get independence. That’s not going to happen. Regardless which generation of Chinese government you deal with, Tibet is never going to be independent. You can call for democracy for China all you want, a democratic China will not give you independence for sure. I guess you didn’t see the pro-China demonstrations around the world. Of course, you think they got paid by the government to do it. But the thing is, China is poor and all the leftover money went to build temples in Tibet and to put food in Tibetans’ mouths, they don’t got no money left to pay for demonstrations.

    Go ask your handlers if they are willing to go to war for you and turn Tibet into a huge training camp for Talibans (say what? Yes, these people are cousins). Tibet don’t got no oil, can’t even grow food. LOL. You are just a tool. Get real.

15. April 28th, 2008 at 18:03 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    15

    Cerebus : WELL SAID. Thank you for taking time out of your day to share your opinions, I agree 100%.

    I think Sweden or Switzerland would be a good moderator, but as we all know, there is no Comprimising with China, so the task would be near impossible, imho.Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted, so that when the facts that we all accept as true are presented openly, there is no doubt what agenda is driving the parties involved.

16. April 28th, 2008 at 23:10 pm
    eugene:
    16

    It makes little difference to supporters of a free and sovereign Tibet what egalitarian rhetoric Chinese use to rationalize the occupation of a previously independent country. Why? Because the Chinese want to “help the Tibetans realize their true Chinese-ness” utter nonsense!
    We in the west are not perfect and there are many who demonstrate, criticize and protest the many crimes against “The People” that are perpetrated by western governments and Asian governments. It matters little who the government is-if they are aggressors against “The People” they are wrong, and they are criminals. No Chinese government official can rationalize that away.

17. April 29th, 2008 at 0:05 am
    Wei:
    17

    @peter:

    How about Free Hawaii? I think by your standard, Free Tibet and Free Hawaii should go hand in hand :P

    @Eugene

    As you are ignored by the western governments, you shouldn’t be too disappointed then, that you are getting ignored by rest of us.

18. April 29th, 2008 at 4:15 am
    cerebus:
    18

    I’m very concerned about human rights abuses in the whole of China. I do want to see a free China, but you are being very presumptious: I don’t care about Tibetan independence, only cultural self-determination. What business is it of mine, you ask. Is it a Confucian characterisitic NOT to care about anyone else? Well, it is an African philosophy to care about EVERYONE else who shares this planet. I’m from South Africa. Firstly I care about people. I share this planet with Chinese and Tibetan people and as long as I breath I will hope for a more fair dispensation for them. (You can google the concept of “Ubuntu”… very related to Buddhism.)

    But I’ll admit self-interest: China’s growing influence in Africa is of direct concern to me. This influence will grow in the future, for better or worse, and I see an opportunity NOW to direct the course of it for the better. I currently believe China has a very positive role to play in the world. I base this on the people I know in China, not on the actions of the government. There is also the very real possibility that my children will have to grow up in this country. You can’t get more self-interested than that.

    I am a nobody, sure. But I was one of a few thousand nobodies who managed to change and influence the previous government of my country to change and become democratic. I might be nobody, but I have a voice and I have a vote and I happen to have human rights.

    You say the Dalai is now French. Funny, but ridiculous. Not very constructive in this debate.

    How about we agree on one thing: Tibet will never be independent. Okay, they don’t even want to be independent. Then answer this: is it in principle not a good thing to investigate through dialogue what their concerns, in fact, are and find a way to address those concerns to avoid future incidents of rioting and violence to take place? Or do you believe all the monks and civilians who took part in the March 14 riots should simply be removed from society and be punished? What, in short, according to you, are the root causes of those riots? Why are they angry?

    The Chinese government might be proposing to talk simply to buy time until after the olympics when they expect the world’s attention will be diverted elsewhere. Or maybe they are smarter than you and understand that dialogue is the only real opportunity they have of achieving lasting “harmony”.

    No-one wants to overthrow the Chinese government. Many people want to effect incremental change. In fact, much of that change is already happening. Personally I want to focus on freedom of expression as a first and important step. Like I said above: I believe it will benefit everyone in China, and might strengthen the government itself in their fight against corruption.

    I don’t think for a minute the pro-China demonstrators were paid by the government. I know how much Chinese love their country. I also know most of them are horribly misinformed about the situation in Tibet (and elsewhere in China) and would feel ashamed if they were presented with the actual accusations by the Tibetans. This is the great shame on you and your people: the Chinese are good people, but you lack a dimension: one of critical self-awareness. You’ll get it eventually. My people also lacked it… many still do. It’s very hard to chnage profoundly your concept of self and your identity. And the great triumph of the CCP was to intertwine politics and culture so effectively since, well, 1949. You fear admitting one problem, because it might make the whole house of cards come down. It’s painful. I can see this in my Chinese friends: China IS their identity. Good job, Mao.

    No wonder Tibet- and Taiwan-issues are taken so personally: it’ll be like amputation.

    Of course, you’re not all like that. But blood is thicker than water, hey. Hurts when people talk about you like this. I know: we South Africans were pretty much dirt during Apartheid, but we deserved it. And you deserve it now, if only to shake some of you out of your blindness.

    China is not a poor country anymore: more political myth that supports the government’s international agenda. It’s good for China internationally to be considered poor. That’s politics, so I have no big problem with it, except it hasn’t been true for ten years now. No country who can put people in space can complain about being poor.

    @Wei
    It’s funny that Hawaiian pro-independence websites are blocked in China. There aren’t human rights abuses in Hawaii and people campaigning for independence are allowed to do so openly and freely.

19. April 29th, 2008 at 6:02 am
    my_mother:
    19

    cerebus:

    I am very concerned about the slight tinge of ego/ethnocentrism, in your voice. A tat preachy, but I appreciated the gesture. I want a more united China, a Stronger China, and more importantly a Free China. Whether or not that’s your vision of China is beside the point. The course of China’s future should be determined by its own citizens. And thus, the task of national reconciliation should rightly fall squarely on the shoulders of its people. We, the 55 other Chinese ethnicities, heard the moans of our Tibetan brothers. Their pain is our pain. Their distress is our distress. It’s our task to address their grievances. It’s our task to find our way to self-determination. It’s our task to find the promised land, the China of our vision. Unless , you don’t think we are capable of it or somehow not quite up to the task. In that case, I will gladly hand the task to you and your ilk and hail you the kings of China.

    Sincerely
    Kain

20. April 29th, 2008 at 15:33 pm
    eugene:
    20

    Wei;
    i am not disappointed to be ignored. truth is truth, and it need not be heard nor believed to be true. regarding hawaii; it was taken from the hawaiians by force from imperialistic, capitalist americans and is still held as territory, it was wrong when it happened and it should be given back to the hawaiian people. just as imperialist china takes Tibet, so should it be returned.

21. April 29th, 2008 at 18:37 pm
    Oneworld:
    21

    Eugene,

    Do you consider Iragi War justified? This war is so contemporary and grossly Wrong, I can not evn find comparison in the history of Mankind.

    On the other hand, Tibet has been part of China for the past 700 years, even before Columbus set foot on North America? How far back do we have to go to show you that Tibet is legitmently part of China. Please check the brief objective history of Tibet on http://www.nytimes.com.

    here is a post from ireport.com and I just want you to understand the 1.3 billion Chinese’ point of view (we do not think we are victim of the west yet history is there to show the background of our sentiment):

    When We were called Sick man of Asia, We were called The Peril.
    When We are billed to be the next Superpower, We are called The threat.

    When We were closed our doors, You smuggled Drugs to Open Markets.
    When We Embrace Freed Trade, You blame us for Taking away your jobs.

    When We were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your “fair share”.
    When We were putting the broken peices together again, “Free Tibet” you screamed, “it was an invasion!”
    ( When Woodrow Wilson Couldn’t give back Birth Place of Confucius back to Us, But He did bought a ticket for the Famine Relief Ball for
    us.)

    So, We Tried Communism, You hated us for being Communists
    When We embrace Capitalism, You hate us for being Capitalist.

    When We have a Billion People, you said we were destroying the planet.
    When We are tried limited our numbers, you said It was human rights abuse.

    When We were Poor, You think we are dogs.
    When We Loan you cash, You blame us for your debts.

    When We build our industries, You called us Polluters.
    When we sell you goods, You blame us for global warming.

    When We buy oil, You called that exploitation and Genocide.
    When You fight for oil, You called that Liberation.

    When We were lost in Chaos and rampage, You wanted Rules of Law for us.
    When We uphold law and order against Violence, You called that Violating Human Rights.

    When We were silent, You said you want us to have Free Speech.
    When We were silent no more, You say we were Brainwashed- Xenophoics.

    Why do you hate us so much? We asked.
    “No,” You Answered, “We don’t hate You.”

    We don’t Hate You either,
    But Do you understand us?

    “Of course We do,” You said,
    “We have AFP, CNN and BBCs…”

    What do you really want from us?
    Think Hard first, then Answer…

    Because you only get so many chances,
    Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for this one world.

    We want One World, One Dream, And Peace On Earth.

    This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

22. April 29th, 2008 at 18:58 pm
    Karze:
    22

    Knights:

    “UR Chinese friend says it well.
    I am not against China to talk with Dalai. If he cares about tibetans, he should think for their best interest to learn mandarin and go toward modernization. We Chinese come to the U.S., we have to learn to speak English in order to make a good living. It applies to tibetans as well.”

    Its Chinese who occupied and come to Tibet not Tibetans come to China. You should not lie in broad day light. So instead of Chinese in Tibet should learn Tibetan.

    Mandarin is not essential to modernize Tibet. The so called talk by Beijing is to buy time for Olympic. Chinese have never been sincere as the talks haven been going on since 1979 since Deng Xiopeng came to power.

    But nothing came as a result. Chinese believe after the death of Dalai Lama Tibet issue disappear. So Beijing is playing a waiting and delaying tactics.

23. April 29th, 2008 at 19:19 pm
    cerebus:
    23

    Kain

    Great, when can we do the handover?

    No seriously. When did I say I don’t think you are capable? So get going: address their grievances.

    Just remember to ask them what their grievances are, otherwise you might get a slight tinge of ego/ethnocentrism all over your new red shirt.

24. April 29th, 2008 at 19:33 pm
    ted:
    24

    cerebus,

    From your latest reply, it seems that you are not as thick headed as from your previos post where you outlined the Tibet-independence directives.

    However, from your own “life” story about South Africa, it reads to me that you are just as naive and simple minded about the whole Tibet-China issue and about Chinese people in general. China is NOT South Africa. The government has never brainwashed people about racial segregation. Some people are racist regardless what kind of government that his/her country has. I worked for a South African for 5 years. I can say he “terrorized” me for that 5 years, day-to-day comments like “Chinese are just pigs” don’t even begin to describe the shit he spewed out. And he also fought against apartheid. Him, being a white male, would been thought as progressive, but he was the biggest sexist and racist I have ever met, believe I have lived all around in US (the south, SF, LA, NY, etc.) and also Canada.

    I can go on and on about it, but my point is that a small number of people from a certain country/culture doesn’t represent the whole. In the same token, many Chinese people don’t believe that the exiled Tibetan government and Dalai represent Tibet either. Dalai hasn’t been to Tibet since 1959. It’s not he wasn’t given a chance to go back, he refused in the 80s to pursue his independence agenda. I say he’s French now, it was intended as being funny, he was awarded a Parisan honorary citizenship just last week.

    On one hand you say Chinese people are good people, but one the hand you say we are stupid because we love our country and are in favor of the CCP. It seems strange to me and everyone Chinese that you, and the rest of you out there, think that the Chinese government is not legitimate. If it’s not legitimate, it would have been gone already like all the previous emperors and republic figure heads (pre 1940s). Somehow this government is just a group of very skilled manipulators to can efficiently control a population of 1.3 billion? No human beings can do that, no matter how skilled you are. Think about this before you say things like “I am not against you, only against your government”. You think the CCP is not going to be there if China were democratic?

    Please don’t even bother bringing Sweden or Switzerland into the whole discussion. It’s just absurd.

    Dalai is not asking for independence, not in public anyways. He’s instead asking for a Greater Tibet which not only includes the current TAR area and its surrounding 4 other provinces. According to his plan, the Greater Tibet will contain ~5 million Tibetans and ~50 million non-Tibetans. When asked what he had in mind for the 90% who are not Tibetan, he said “they should leave”. We are not talking about people who were “moved in” by CCP in the past 50 years, these are the people whose families have been living in the “greater tibet” for hundreds and hundreds of years. This is the real apartheid. I don’t know much about South Africa, but may it’s similar. You are supporting this cause, think about it. Read and watch Dalai’s interviews, see through the “I love peace, I love earth” slogans (btw, who can say no to that!).

    Please stop recommending your solutions to Chinese people. Where were you during the cultural revolution when millions of Chinese died of starvation? When we finally have enough to eat, and may have become a piece of tasty meat, you are here to take a bite.

    I don’t pretend I understand much about South Africa even though I know a few of you (not just my ex-boss). So please don’t pretend you know China and Chinese people just because you know “some” Chinese.

    I look forward to your replies.

25. April 29th, 2008 at 20:04 pm
    my_mother:
    25

    A few things for you guys to think about. If it is an issue about human rights, I am all for it. However, if it is an issue about territorial sovereignty, it’s simply a nonstarter.

    Just think about the stuff below.

    http://www.boycottabsolut.com/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUdFKpH8gM
    http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=0Oi7JEObPVA

26. April 29th, 2008 at 22:45 pm
    ted:
    26

    cerebus,

    I read your post again and want to respond to several points that you made:

    1) “do you believe all the monks and civilians who took part in the March 14 riots should simply be removed from society and be punished? ”

    I think those who burned, beat, hurt, and even killed people on that day should be severely punished. One 5-month old baby and his parents were burned alive, and many more. It doesn’t matter whether they are monks or not. Who exempted monks for answering for their crimes? They will not be removed from society because once they have been released from prison (or after their life-sentece has been reduced), they will rejoin the society.

    Having a religion and being a monority do not give one a free ticket to murder! Don’t tell me that Christians/Jews/muslims/Hinus/etc don’t go to prison when they commit crimes.

    2) “What, in short, according to you, are the root causes of those riots? Why are they angry?”

    In my opinion, they were angry because they were not happy with their lives. It has nothing to do with religion. If praying can get them more money, they would be doing that instead of rubbing other people. They hate non-Tibetans for making more money, but they don’t think about whether their own unemployment has contributed to them being poor. There are plenty of Tibetans who go to schools and then get jobs, either inside Tibet or elsewhere in China.

    I am not denying there is no racial prejudice in China. But in TAR, 95% are Tibetans, for them to claim racism is a bit of overstating reality.

    Being a monk means one does not hold a paying job, in other words, an ordinary job. They get a government stipend. Where did the stipend come from? Tax payers, Chinese tax payers. I am not 100% sure, but I don’t think in US the government pays for churchs and preachers.

    All in all, like Obama said “when you are bitter, you cling to guns and religion.”

    3) “I also know most of them are horribly misinformed about the situation in Tibet (and elsewhere in China) and would feel ashamed if they were presented with the actual accusations by the Tibetans. ”

    Chinese people have been misinformed in the sense that they didn’t know Tibetans hated them because they never saw on TV until now that Tibetans knived and burned people alive simple because of hate and jealousy.

    I remember my shock when I came to US as a teenage, a Tibetan screamed at me that he wanted to kill Chinese people. I remember how upset I was because as children in China we were taught to “treat minority brothers and sisters with love and compassion”. But now I know better to stay away from them.

    If being well-informed means playing up ethnic and racial tensions, I have to say maybe CCP did the right thing.

    The accusations made by exiled Tibetans are just accusations, not proven facts. There is a huge difference b/w the two. One day they say 50 killed, next day it was 100, up until today it was 150, then today is 200, 203. Where do they get the numbers? You should watch the video where the spokesperson for the exiled government explains how they got the number. It’s basically whatever they say goes. But judge for yourself whether they have a scientific way of computing the fatality numbers.

    I don’t think Chinese will be ashamed with the Chinese government. Everytime the exile Tibetan government explains their “facts”, people laugh at them because you can just tell those people never heard of confirming facts. They are not very well educated, I am sorry to say. It’s not their fault, it’s hard living in India and try to get an education while the Indian national illiteracy rate is about 50%.

    4) “You fear admitting one problem, because it might make the whole house of cards come down. It’s painful. I can see this in my Chinese friends: China IS their identity.”

    Yes, China is all Chinese’s identity. What’s wrong with that? It doesn’t mean it’s the only dimension in one’s identity. If I walk down the street, people will not see me as a multi-dimension entity, but a Chinese/asian (I don’t mean all asians are chinese).

    Yes, there is a problem. It’s with the upper-class exiled Tibetans who dream that they deserve everything because they are from a upper caste. They can’t get this outside Tibet, that’s why they want to return. While they spent all this energy to protest and motivate people to burn and kill, why couldn’t they have use the same energy to get jobs and get an education in the “free” world? Why are they always on the street protesting? Do they work for a living, beside hating China?

    According to US-reported news on previously held talks b/w the Chinese government and Dalai’s people, they had always been focused on Dalai’s return to China. Why is that? What is improving Tibetan’s lives tied singly to Dalai’s return to his palaces and his thron? In public, he always talks about “peace, love, compassion”, why in private he only discusses about his own return?

    5) “No wonder Tibet- and Taiwan-issues are taken so personally: it’ll be like amputation. ”

    Taiwan and Tibet are two completely different issues. With Tibet, we are dealing with an ethnic minority group. With Taiwan, they are mostly Han and Hui and we split from the civil war and their passports still say “Republic of China” (as in acknowleding being Chinese). Let’s not mix apples and oranges.

    6) “China is not a poor country anymore: more political myth that supports the government’s international agenda. ”

    Poor is relatively to developed country rich. There are millions of Chinese who live below or barely above the poverty line (more if you are using the Western standard). It’s only been 20-30 yrs that China has started to develop its economy, it’s far from any developed countries which took 200+ yrs to get them there.

    The government’s agenda is to bring more people out of poverty, go beyond just having enough to eat and a root over our heads. Seriously, having done that for 1.3 billion people in 30 yrs is a tremendously achievement. What other country’s government has done this?

    Again, when you say “the government’s agenda”, you are talking about the manipulators who are running the government? You are assuming Chinese people don’t want better lives, they prefer to starve to death.

27. April 29th, 2008 at 23:22 pm
    eugene:
    27

    hey ted; mao sits in heaven and weeps for the revolution that was sold to the capitalists of the world for a few trillion yuan! look at the skyscrapers, condos, and expensive cars in Shanghai and Beijing, then look at the poverty of the outer provinces. it’s a most interesting approach to communism.

    my_mother; it may be a nonstarter for some, and nothing may come of it, but i want it recorded for posterity that there are those who wanted it, and spoke out for it, whether or not it happens. and if your’re for human rights then you should be for the right of tibetans to not have their culture destroyed by han capitalists, just in tibet for the yuans they can squeeze from the land and it’s people.

28. April 30th, 2008 at 0:19 am
    Wei:
    28

    -> So instead of Chinese in Tibet should learn Tibetan

    Except Tibet is a part of China like all the other minorities in China, should require to learn Chinese.

29. April 30th, 2008 at 2:29 am
    ted:
    29

    Eugene,

    I want to agree with you, but I am a bit confused by your comments. Communism or not, the truth is a lot of Chinese people came out poverty and a lot are still in it. I hope more and more people will be able to live more comfortably, not just those in the cities.

    On your comment to “my_mother” ;), I am not sure how Hans are squeezing money out Tibetans when Tibetans don’t got none. They are not rich people who can afford to buy stuff or have their money scammed. And I am pretty sure Hans are not interested in Tibetan buddhism which is very different from the traditional buddhism practiced by some Chinese people. I fail to follow your logic.

30. April 30th, 2008 at 3:35 am
    knights:
    30

    @ Karze,

    hm, why do you care about other’s business so much. If you have so much time and energy, you should focus on your own country eh? help your own country’s problems before you stick your stinky nose in other’s business that is of no concern to you!

31. April 30th, 2008 at 4:11 am
    cerebus:
    31

    Ted, I’m sorry about your experience with the South African. I don’t know many nice ones either.

    I will “stop recommending my solutions to the Chinese people”. Instead I will direct my comments towards non-Chinese people who care. I will tell them what I see in China, and how I experience it.

    You’re right: China can solve its own problems. We’ll be watching.

32. April 30th, 2008 at 9:19 am
    my_mother:
    32

    Cerebus:

    I think red would fit me quite well. The only problem is that I am color blinded. I wouldn’t be able to tell whether it is red or green. I would have to ask someone else.

    In many ways, that’s the heart of the problem. Much like being color blinded, many on both sides are blinded (ignorant) with respect to the other’s perspective, and even worst, the absurdities of some of their own arguments and logic. Yet, few even bother to ask. Instead, what we see the majority of time are shouting matches, ultra-nationalistic flag waving, simplistic “truisms”, and even personal attacks that can only serve to divide and polarize. It is no environment to foster meaningful dialogs and exchange.

    We have to ask ourselves: “Are our own arguments constructive or simply idealistic / patriotic rhetoric?” It takes men of vision to see through all of the pretenses and empathize with the fears and anxieties of the other. Unfortunately, neither the Dalai Lama (including his aids) nor the current leadership in the CCP has that kind of talent.

    What’s even worse, since Paris, any meaningful solution to the “Tibet question” had became very very far away. Neither side had taken steps to allay the fear and distrust that had been fostered in the past several months, not to mention the past several decades.

    The Dalai Lama hasn’t showed any meaningful gestures (beyond mere words) that he’s no longer a secessionist. He hasn’t demonstrated any of his current sway over his followers as he had in the past (i.e., during the 2002-2007 negotiations, when he asked his followers to temper their demonstrations oversea). Even worst, he could be hedging his bets: Saying he only wants autonomy while stoking the flame for Independence. You can see that’s bad faith bargaining, right?

    As for the CCP, they haven’t taken any steps to hear the grievances of their Tibetan citizens; to find out what’s the root of their frustrations. In effect, turned a deaf ear to their suffering. Worse yet, they may just be biding time until the Dalai Lama dies. (It may require a chorus of voices, han, tibetan, hui, manchu, mongol, miao…., to wake the central government as to the plight of its people.)

    So, Cerebus, we kind of have to think about what will be the fruits of the new negotiations. A better question yet — What will be the real fruits of all those “Pro-Tibet” actions and the “Pro-China” actions by your counterparts?

    Best
    Kain

33. April 30th, 2008 at 17:14 pm
    Karze:
    33

    Wei

    If Tibetans are required to learn Mandarin then what right does minorities have. As per the constitution of china minorities have the right to practice their language, culture, religion.

    So are you speaking against the constitution. Go and read the constitution.

34. May 1st, 2008 at 4:13 am
    cerebus:
    34

    Kain,

    Good response. I agree for the most part. “The result” is each side increases their bargaining power: Tibetans who call for independence might end up getting autonomy. Chinese who demonise the Dalai might erode his support base.

    From our perspective, as non-Chinese-trying-hard-not-to-tell-the-Chinese-what-to-do, it did seem like the Dalai Lama called for tolerance and a tempering of rhetoric to respect the Olympics. And it also looked like it worked: pro-Tibetan protests after San Fransisco have been very muted, with pro-Chinese turning up in far greater numbers, and sadly causing a lot of violence in Australia, Japan and especially Seoul.

    Again, from our perspective, it looks like the Chinese government arrogantly and stubbornly refuse to do anything and even kept on demonising the Dalai after announcing their “talks”. What I want to say is: you make it sound like all sides are equally guilty, when I don’t think we can understand what you mean: to us the Dalai tries and China doesn’t.

    A chorus of voices would be great, but how will we hear them? How will the Chinese hear them? Maybe they already exist. Maybe Hu Jia, for example, could have told us about them.

    Have you read the work of Bo Yang? As a non-Chinese I don’t even feel comfortable mentioning the title of his book in English. You can google it. I think he is in fact very relevant to this debate, especially if there are really talks in the future: there absolutely HAS to be mediation.

35. May 2nd, 2008 at 14:52 pm
    eugene:
    35

    cerebus; i will try to read bo yangs book. i found bo yang on wikipedia-sounds like a very brave chinese man…

36. May 2nd, 2008 at 17:09 pm
    Knights:
    36

    @ Karze

    Tibetans can speak their own language, but one has to learn the majority race’s language regardless of which country you are in! Take Native Americans, Europeans came and swept the land in blood and declare the land of the majority English speaking nation, Native Americans have to learn to speak English. China has owned Tibet for more than 700 years, the Tibetan race is still intact and much better compared with Native Americans, so why not learn to speak Mandarin as a second language????? Chinese and Tibetan minorities in U.S. and other parts of the world have to learn to speak the native countries’ languages in order to make a better living. SO deal with it! Do not play double standards! Your argument is pointless!

37. May 2nd, 2008 at 20:45 pm
    Trying to be rational:
    37

    cerebus,

    Ok, we are all observers. We are not decision makers on either side, and we do not have the info that the decision makers on each side have, so we really cannot make judgment of whether they make good decisions or not (base on the info they have). We are observers, having our own opinions based on what we know. But it is ok, we can still have our opinions and we can and should still voice our opinions. It’s a good thing for everybody.

    It sounds to me that you have more sympathy toward Dalai, and less towards China. I do not quite agree with that, but it’s ok, and I completely understand it. No offense and no hard feelings.

    > Good response. I agree for the most part. “The result” is each side increases their bargaining power: Tibetans who call for independence might end up getting autonomy. Chinese who demonise the Dalai might erode his support base.
    >
    > From our perspective, as non-Chinese-trying-hard-not-to-tell-the-Chinese-what-to-do, it did seem like the Dalai Lama called for tolerance and a tempering of rhetoric to respect the Olympics. And it also looked like it worked: pro-Tibetan protests after San Fransisco have been very muted, with pro-Chinese turning up in far greater numbers, and sadly causing a lot of violence in Australia, Japan and especially Seoul.

    To me, it sounds like all the good things are credited to Dalai, and all the bad things are “credited” to China.

    Dalai Lama calling for tolerance, oh, yes, I heard about it, many times. Trust me that I was once touched and moved by Dalai Lama, or the reporting on him in the media. Now I am just wondering what he was/is doing behind the scene.

    Demonising? No rational people support demonising people, right? Anybody who “demonise” other people will just hurt instead of help himself in the long run, right?

    Dalai Lama claimed that Chinese people killed 1.2 million Tibetans. I have not seen any convincing evidence yet. However, the following article is more credible to me, as it backs up its arguments and conclusions with references:

    http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

    And here is this Karze, who keeps playing victim (really, who caused the pain, and the tragedy?), and seems undetermined if the “Riot was started by Chinese security not the monks” or the riots were started… by whom?… “To tell the Chinese that we resent your occupation, oppression for last 60 years and we want Chinese out of Tibet.” See the other thread next door, posts #433 and #477:

    http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/04/13/china-fallout-from-the-free-tibet-protests/

    It’s a long thread with many comments. But if you really care about the China-Tibet issue, I recommend you to take the time to read it. I got to see and hear different voices there and I learned things there, and for this I think that thread is worthy and more balanced than the opening blog entry is.

    I do not see anything wrong in overseas Chinese showing up, even in great number, in support of the Olympics to be held in China, a non-political event. The way I see it, it was not the Chinese who turned the torch relay into a political event, it was the pro-Tibetan protesters. You may argue that they have the right to protest. Well, I agree, but I digress. The way I see it, the only problem that a larger number of overseas Chinese gathering in another country is when the general sentiment at that place including local media and local people — and, yes, thanks to the pro-Tibetan protesters who travel the world to follow the torch-relay event — toward the torch-relay event and Chinese people is not even neutral, i.e. against. If the general local atmosphere is against the torch-relay event or Chinese people, then it is probably a bad idea to insist on holding the event at that place.

    Violence is indeed tragedy. If a certain Chinese citizen physically attacked another person without being physically provoked, then he is stupid (he did not help himself, did not help his country). No doubt about it. You have to be punished by law if you violate the law. I wish I knew all the facts, and if the other party initiated the physical attack, he should also be punished according to the law.

    > Again, from our perspective, it looks like the Chinese government arrogantly and stubbornly refuse to do anything and even kept on demonising the Dalai after announcing their “talks”. What I want to say is: you make it sound like all sides are equally guilty, when I don’t think we can understand what you mean: to us the Dalai tries and China doesn’t.”

    Again, it is your opinion. And I do not agree. Yes the Chinese government may have refused some “talks” with Dalai, but “arrogantly and stubbornly” is purely subjective.

    “all sides are equally guilty”:
    I actually quite agree with this one. Everybody fights for his own interest, so nobody should complain about the results because he is responsible for his actions.

    I wish the Chinese government could make its decision making and reasoning more transparent. And I especially wish it could better communicate its reasoning to the non-Chinese-speaking part of the world, if it were ever possible. This should help the Chinese government and potentially earn the Chinese government more respect from more people around the world. But I know it is difficult.

    > A chorus of voices would be great, but how will we hear them? How will the Chinese hear them? Maybe they already exist. Maybe Hu Jia, for example, could have told us about them.

    If one can listen to the voices unbiased and open-minded. Then again, almost everybody is more or less biased and has preconceptions, so it’s no surprise that there are different reactions.

    Regarding Hu Jia. Democracy, corruption, etc., yes, China does have a lot of pressing problems, including the China-Tibet one, that need addressing. But in my opinion it is largely irrelevant to the current China-Tibet issue. By the way, I admire him a lot for what I know about what he was doing. Whether imprisonment of him is right or wrong, or is against Chinese laws or not, I do not know because I do not think I have all the facts.

    > Have you read the work of Bo Yang? As a non-Chinese I don’t even feel comfortable mentioning the title of his book in English. You can google it. I think he is in fact very relevant to this debate, especially if there are really talks in the future: there absolutely HAS to be mediation.

    “there absolutely HAS to be mediation.”
    Yes if the mediation is well-intentioned. No if you have a hidden agenda.

    The non-talking between China and Dalai… Maybe neither China or Dalai has the sincerity for a dialog, or maybe it’s predominately because of one side’s lacking of it (if so then which side?)?

    It is fine to mention Bo Yang’s book. Many Chinese people have read the book.

    A few links form the other thread (I apologize if this is a re-post of web sites you have already visited)

    http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/chinese_geopolitics_and_significance_tibet
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8673
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8697

    Gather as much info as you can, and make your own judgments. — notes to myself too.

    In the end, everybody fights for his own interest. This is (unfortunately) how the world runs — it’s just a question of how to deal with it, hopefully for the benefits/interests of everybody. But nobody wants to be used or manipulated by others for their political or moral causes. And don’t be a hypocrite. — notes to myself too.

    cerebus, thank you for your posts. If I do not feel your good will, I would not have replied.

38. May 2nd, 2008 at 20:55 pm
    Wei:
    38

    @karze

    The constitution reads Chinese is the official language of China, not Tibetan.

    It is reasonable to require citizens of China to know how to speak Chinese.

39. May 3rd, 2008 at 8:45 am
    my_mother:
    39

    Cerebus:

    I have a bit more cynical view of the potential results. But at this point is all speculation. Let just cross our fingers and hope for the best. I wouldn’t be surprised if our versions of what is best differ, as it is case with who tries and who doesn’t.

    Thanks for recommending Bo Yang to me. He is a brave CHINESE man, but I don’t think Eugene understands that he was prosecuted in Taiwan for his criticism of the nationalists etc. But, of course Taiwan is a part of China, right? Anyhow, I am going have to read the English version of his book though. I understand the title doesn’t translate well.

    As for the chorus of voices, you are hearing them now. But by the courtesies of “Pro-Tibet” actions, what people are hearing now is a quite different tune; A bit of basic human psychology.

    I enjoyed talking to you. Again, let’s hope for the best.

    Best
    Kain

40. May 11th, 2008 at 15:30 pm
    Karze:
    40

    Trying to be rational

    Its very typical of Chinese to denounce Japanese for visiting Yasakuni shrine while Chinese themselves have no problem in honouring PLA who killed hundred of thousands of Tibetan civilian, women, children, monks and nuns.

    Its okay to denounce Japanese and West for invading China in past yet they have no problem in occupying Tibet and repressing it brutally like Nazi.

    Its okay to denounce Dalai Lama as

    ” A wolf in monks robes, a devil with human face with heart of beast.”

    by Chinese Party secretary Mr Zang in Tibet yet they cannot bear when CNN Jack Caferty comment on Chinese leadership as “thugs and goons.

    There as so many double standards that world has to endure from Chinese.

41. May 11th, 2008 at 20:13 pm
    Trying to be rational:
    41

    Karze:

    All the media are hypocrites, Chinese and other in the world. I think this is fair.

    It’s all propaganda, for the interests of each individual groups. Double standards, Chinese media and some Chinese people are not free from it. Remember that I said people are the same everywhere in the world?

    I guess now I can care less about the media/propaganda/public image stuff. Let’s work on real things, things that are of interest to both of us. Interests will clash, but *I* believe we can find a way out, so that we can both gain, peacefully. This requires compromises on both sides. Trying to maximize one’s own interests without considering the other side’s interests is not likely to work. On the China-Tibet issue, I am not saying China is blameless. I think we both need to make an effort, *sincere* and *constructive* effort, to reach a win-win situation.

42. May 11th, 2008 at 22:59 pm
    Knights:
    42

    I think I’d support Dalai to visit his home in Tibet in his final days before death. He’s an old man, we should not object to him coming home before his last breathe as long as he keeps out of politics and being a sincere monk. I’d also support a better tibet as well a better China.

    Declaring independence of any part of China is strictly prohibited.

43. May 12th, 2008 at 20:51 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    43

    Earthquake news: “China cracks under International pressure”

    I hope no one who cares about other humans was hurt.

    Let’s see if China will blame Dalai Lama for this now too.

    The Buddhist in me tells me I should feel compassion for all life, but I do find it more and more difficult in this case.

44. May 12th, 2008 at 23:55 pm
    Trying to be rational:
    44

    @ Peter Karhatsy:

    > Earthquake news: “China cracks under International pressure”
    >
    > I hope no one who cares about other humans was hurt.
    >
    > Let’s see if China will blame Dalai Lama for this now too.
    >
    > The Buddhist in me tells me I should feel compassion for all life, but I do find it more and more difficult in this case.

    Your comment is so not-fun. I am stupid enough to even reply to it.

45. May 13th, 2008 at 1:58 am
    Wei:
    45

    @ Peter Karhatsy

    You are just a shining example of the movement you represent; arn’t you?

46. May 13th, 2008 at 4:23 am
    my_mother:
    46

    Peter Karhatsy:

    I am sure the Dalai Lama would be overjoyed to have someone like you in his fold.

    (Interpret it anyway you want.)

    Kain

47. May 13th, 2008 at 13:28 pm
    Knights:
    47

    @ pk

    you said “Earthquake news: China cracks under
    International pressure
    “The Buddhist in me tells me I should feel compassion for all life, but I do find it more and more difficult in this case.”

    If you have an evil heart, you do NOT deserve to be a buddhist as Dalai does not deserve to be buddhist. Those dead souls are coming after you tonight. I suggest you hide before you will join them.

48. May 13th, 2008 at 13:51 pm
    Knights:
    48

    In time of crisis, we see the true face of people. People’s Republic of China has been very busy rescuing people while Dalai is enjoying his luxious life elsewhere. You may argue that Dalai is not in China. He can at least come out and say something like a prayer for the victims. He could also donate money to organizations. No dalai is no where to be heard nor found. This is why we support PRC over Dalai.

49. May 13th, 2008 at 15:30 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    49

    I’m not Buddhist, I’m not kind enough.
    I believe in protecting what I love by all means necessary.
    I don’t always have right speech or right thought.

50. May 13th, 2008 at 21:22 pm
    Sonagi:
    50

    “You may argue that Dalai is not in China. He can at least come out and say something like a prayer for the victims. He could also donate money to organizations. No dalai is no where to be heard nor found. This is why we support PRC over Dalai.”

    Dalai Lama prays for earthquake victims
    http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ggFalbVlUT6JvK6Sso-G19xN1N9gD90KN5UO0

    Dalai Lama prays for China earthquake victims
    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-China-Quake-Dalai-Lama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

    Dalai Lama praises China’s quake action
    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23692150-23109,00.html

    Dalai Lama offers condolences over China quake
    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iZG-mDg5nT2aM05e1F0DON3eyscQ

    As of Tuesday afternoon EDT, CCTV and the Renmin Ribao/People’s Daily had not given any coverage to the Dalai Lama’s statements. Don’t be too CCTV!

51. May 14th, 2008 at 3:50 am
    Wei:
    51

    @pk

    Nevermind your contempt for anything Chinese, you are certainly not kind enough to the large population of Tibetans who are affected there.

    You are as ignorant as you are brutish. Chinese government is doing everything they can to help all Chinese, Hans, Tibetans and others alike; unlike you.

    Why don’t you just crawl under a rock and rot. Tibetans living in Sichuan certainly won’t miss you.

52. May 14th, 2008 at 16:59 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    52

    @Wei

    I have contempt for all people that support the oppression and extermination of any ethnic minority and their ways of life.

    I may not be kind, but you are a mindless automaton of your dishonorable government.

53. May 14th, 2008 at 19:02 pm
    Karze:
    53

    Dalai Lama is not living a luxury life but is refugee, who has no passport but just a travel papers as he has no country as Chinese occupied his country.

    First of all it is Han who has occupied the minority land and bossing and forcing them to learn Han language and culture in minority land.Minorities are not living on Han land.

    The Han party secretary Mr Zang, of the so called Tibet autonomous region called Dalai Lama as:

    “A wolf in monks robes, a devil with human face with heart of beast.”

    If that is not offensive then what is it. But Dalai Lama has never sued but has instead offered to give his blood sample to check if he is beast or Human.

    Chinese Ambassador at Ottawa described Dalai Lama as liar simply out of anger over the Tibetan uprising in Tibet.

    On the other hand Chinese have sued CNN for just two words that Jack Caferty has used to described Chinese leadership as goons and thugs which they are.

    Since Communism came to power they have acted like goons and thugs using the language of force, intimidation and violence and bloodshed.

54. May 14th, 2008 at 22:16 pm
    my_mother:
    54

    Peter Karhatsy:

    What you should have contempt for is ignorance, of which you seem to fit the bill quite nicely.

    I don’t think Wei needs anybody to defend him. But from the things he written here and else, it’s rather obvious that he’s anything but a mindless automaton.

    This is more than what I can say for you. I haven’t seen one original thought in any of your posts. But of course, that’s a good thing, right? Any movement, just or vile, needs mindless fodder for their cause.

    God forbid that pawns would stop yelling and start thinking. We can’t have that can we?

    Kain

55. May 15th, 2008 at 15:08 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    55

    yo_mama:
    Ignorance is mildly excusable, active genocide is not.

    As for original thought; how could I have one on this topic? This crime has been happening for over 50 years!

    Patriotic Chinese will not bow down, this I understand, but the rest of the world is not fooled by your obvious and childish games and lies.

    The world needs diversity, so I’d rather choose to have free Tibet than a Red China!

56. May 15th, 2008 at 15:10 pm
    Wei:
    56

    -> I may not be kind, but you are a mindless automaton of your dishonorable government.

    I wouldn’t call US government dishonorable, even though I strongly disagree with some of its policies. In that regard, I am glad US is coming to the aid of the Chinese. It is much appreciated.

    As far as myself; my words and posts speak for themselves - as do yours. I thank you for your honest words; it makes it clear to people why your movement must be opposed.

57. May 15th, 2008 at 17:58 pm
    Knights:
    57

    Tenzin: said from another GVO forum
    “I believe there are many Tibetans in Chengdu. I am worried if they will get help from the Chinese. To all those foreigners there, please help the Tibetans also. Thanks”

    I am LOL so hard tears are streaming down my face. This is an example of how ignorant one can be like Tenzin. It’s beyond a normal person’s belief.

    All this nut care about is tibetans while there are 53 ethnicities live in Sichuan who are affected by this tragedy.

    May God help all those affected regardless of what race of ethnicities.

58. May 15th, 2008 at 18:01 pm
    Knights:
    58

    Wow, instead of raising money for the victims (many are tibetans), Dalai chooses to tour the world and complain about China.

    I am LOL too much today about things beyond ignorance that is hard to find reason to explain :-D

59. May 15th, 2008 at 19:05 pm
    Karze:
    59

    knights:

    China is second largest economy in the world and owns 40% of US treasury.

    Of course people should help if the need is there. I think China is economically sound to shoulder the responsibilities with $1.5 trillion in foreign exchange reserve. Which country in the world has such a huge reserve in foreign exchange.

60. May 15th, 2008 at 19:13 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    60

    Knights:
    I don’t believe god is allowed in China, sorry.

    It is a huge tragedy and I hope peaceful coexistence is the outcome, otherwise all the loss of life is meaningless.

    Peace

61. May 15th, 2008 at 19:49 pm
    Wei:
    61

    -> …than a Red China!

    You really need to look at the calendar…That is so 70s.

62. May 15th, 2008 at 23:28 pm
    Fat Tony:
    62

    > I don’t believe god is allowed in China, sorry.

    That is so 70s too.

    The CCP may still meddle with people with religious beliefs quite a bit, but to say that god is not allowed in China is stretching a bit.

63. May 16th, 2008 at 1:33 am
    Wei:
    63

    @PK

    http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-05-16/040113881576s.shtml

    If you can read Chinese, read this and know why I personally find you repulsive and disgusting.

64. May 19th, 2008 at 13:53 pm
    Knights:
    64

    > I don’t believe god is allowed in China, sorry

    This was so 70s, before I was born, as far as I know, China may not be that relaxed about religions, but she does allow all Gods into China. I have traveled to China extensively, and I think “I don’t believe god is allowed in China, sorry” is very misleading.

65. May 19th, 2008 at 15:59 pm
    Knights:
    65

    [sigh] pk does not have a heart nor a soul, what else do we expect?

66. May 19th, 2008 at 16:09 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    66

    Then I guess everyone forgot about this(from wiki(oops, can’t have that in China either!)):

    On 20 July 1999, following seven years of rapid growth of the practice within mainland China, the government of the People’s Republic of China issued a statement banning Falun Gong:

    “ China today banned the Research Society of Falun Dafa and the Falun Gong organization under its control after deeming them to be illegal.

    In its decision on this matter issued today, the Ministry of Civil Affairs said that according to investigations, the Research Society of Falun Dafa had not been registered according to law and had been engaged in illegal activities, advocating superstition and spreading fallacies, hoodwinking people, inciting and creating disturbances, and jeopardizing social stability.

    The decision said that therefore, in accordance with the Regulations on the Registration and Management of Mass Organizations, the Research Society of Falun Dafa and the Falun Gong organization under its control are held to be illegal and are therefore banned.”

    Xinhua further declared that Falun Gong was a highly organised political group “opposed to the Communist Party of China and the central government, [that] preaches idealism, theism and feudal superstition”. It attempted a distinction between “ordinary core members” and the leaders, which it referred to as “a small number of behind-the-scenes plotters and organizers who harbor political intentions”. It struck a warning-bell against some important Party and government officials who were members.[40] Xinhua also affirmed that “the so-called ‘truth, kindness and forbearance’ principle preached by Li has nothing in common with the socialist ethical and cultural progress we are striving to achieve.”[41]

    Li Hongzhi responded with a “Brief Statement of Mine” on July 22:

    “ Falun Gong is simply a popular qigong activity. It does not have any particular organization, let alone any political objectives. We have never been involved in any anti-government activities. I am a cultivator myself, and I have never been destined to be involved in political power. I am just teaching people how to practice cultivation. If one wants to practice qigong well, he/she must be a person of high moral standards…

    We are not against the government now, nor will we be in the future. Other people may treat us badly, but we do not treat others badly, nor do we treat people as enemies.

    We are calling for all governments, international organizations, and people of goodwill worldwide to extend their support and assistance to us in order to resolve the present crisis that is taking place in China.[42]

    —————————————————–
    Boy, they sound almost as dangerous as the Dalai Lama. High moral standards? We wouldn’t want that, would we? Then people might have to become accountable for their petty racism and self-serving behavior.

67. May 19th, 2008 at 17:19 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    67

    No heart? Maybe not for your purposes.

    No soul, that is certain. I am not a believer in such silly, useless and contrived things like heaven and the ultimate powerlessness of people, but that is only my opinion and I would never force it on anyone else. Nor would I denounce them for having different beliefs, even if I disagree with them.

    That, young man, is what is called bigotry. Look it up.

68. May 19th, 2008 at 17:22 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    68

    Looks like my other post didn’t make it.
    As to my god comment, I was referring to the persecution of the Falun Gong in the late 90’s. I’m not going to retype, so if you’re not in China, check it out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong

    Sources of truth are also (guess what?) Not allowed in China.

69. May 19th, 2008 at 17:23 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    69

    “god is not allowed”

    Falun Gong, go look it up.

70. May 19th, 2008 at 19:55 pm
    Wei:
    70

    “god is not allowed”

    Falun Gong, go look it up.

    ——

    Same can be said of raiding of polygamist sect in US. Yet, very few people would argue that god is not allowed in US.

    Anyway, China cartainly needs more religious freedom; but to say god is not allowed in China is just ignorant and stupid(not too big of a surprise coming from you).

    I would have given you more credit had you cited various Vatican - Chinese catholic church issues; but of course, using that example would actually require some understanding of current China which you certainly lack.

71. May 19th, 2008 at 20:54 pm
    Peter Karhatsy:
    71

    Wei:
    I think language is a slight problem.

    On the Internet, people tend to make broadly generalized commentary for the purpose of getting a response, some call it a flame-war. That is what my “no god” comment was.

    As for ignorance, I don’t deny my ignorance of Chinese Gov’t internal processes. I can only rely on second hand information and I trust nothing I have not witnessed myself. Since my beliefs would get me jailed in China, I will continue to suffer from my ignorance. You may just choose to skip my posts, that is your right.

    I do not mind personal attacks. Call me whatever you want, I’m 35, I can handle it. I just think it’s funny that when I do present an example of Chinese oppression, someone always comes up with an excuse… Tiananmen Square, Falun Gong, Tibetans. Always something, and those are only the ones that made international news, and that ignorant old me has read about. As the great firewall locks in the truth, the rest of the world will never know what happens inside China. I guess if the Chinese people themselves do not care, who should, right?

    “He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past.”

    Thanks Mr. Orwell. -1984

72. May 19th, 2008 at 23:42 pm
    my_mother:
    72

    Peter Karhatsy:

    When you come out of your self-imposed exile in ignorance, take a look at this. Falun Gong has nothing to do with god.

    http://exposingthefalungong.org/

    It is kind of funny that things roll out your mouth with such ease; as if they are like the “God spoken gospel”. Do you even bother check any of them? Or that they are “true” simply because they make sense in your head.

    There is nothing that I have contempt for more than self-righteousness rooted in ignorance. And you, Sir, are quickly advancing through the ranks of people that I have the utmost contempt for.

    Best
    Kain

73. May 20th, 2008 at 3:01 am
    peter karhatsy:
    73

    Again, taking things too literally will always lead to misunderstanding. My issue is with the persecution, not which god, entity, deity, yoga stretch or Flying Spaghetti Monster they choose to endorse.

    They have their beliefs, which are strangely funny, but they have their right to them.

    I saw nothing stranger in the link that you sent then what I’ve read about Scientology here in the US. I don’t like it, but people have a right to explore whatever they want to.

    Kain,
    I’m glad to be added to your most esteemed list. I loved this part from your link by the way:
    “Although some of the 1,404 deaths can be confirmed by Falun Gong practitioners, it is impossible to independently verify every one of them without the help of the Chinese government.”

    I’m sure that with the help of the Chinese gov’t we would all come to believe the same thing, if any of us survived.

74. May 20th, 2008 at 3:21 am
    Wei:
    74

    @PK

    You are the last person who should be complaining about unlind words on the net

    There are such things as context in the internet as well…If you use language such as red China etc, then you should be expected be treated as a fool.

    You mentioned 3 issues: TS, FLG and Tibet; the latter are purely manufactored issues by the West and you know my opinion already. As for TS, one should seperate two things: 1) what happened in TS 2) Its impact today. These needs to be discussed seperately.<