When the Olympic torch relay approaches China, Mo Yang saw how the “protection” for this torch relay provided by oversea Chinese hurts China.
这次奥运火炬全球传递基本上是被中国的海外愤青给搞砸了[…]。圣火传递开始阶段，在伦敦和巴黎藏独分子出来破坏，抢夺火炬，阻挠传递的进行。这个时候，理亏的是藏独分子。[…]如果我们能够保持冷静，采取克制[…]，继续按部就班地进行传递接力，把藏独破坏问题完全交给各国警察来处理，那么，[…]各国人民会说：“噢，看来，中国人确实是一心一意要办 好奥运会的，确实是把体育和政治分开的。”[…]但是，不知从哪里跳出来一大堆海外“爱国华人”，[…]反而给中国的形象带来了负面影响。
This torch relay around the world was sabotaged by those “patriotic” oversea Chinese. In the beginning when the torch was relayed in London and Paris, the people supporting Tibet tried to get the torch and stop the relay. At that time, those people did not have good excuse for what they did.[…] If we could keep calm, be composed, […] and let the relay be what it should be—let the police in other countries take care of those protestants–people all over the world would say, “well, we can see Chinese really want to hold a successful Olympic Game, and they do not mix athletics and politics together.”[…] However, these “patriotic Chinese” in other countries showed up out of no where,[…] and they brought negative influence to China's image.
Wan-Er-Bu-Liou-Mang-Gan-Ga analyzed why there are so many angry “patriots”:
这段时间的一系列事件，为什么会激起中国那么多人的愤怒？固然，事件本身没办法不让我们愤怒。但我总觉得这里面有不少是盲目，是被煽动起来的，或者有些愤怒只是冲着事件的本身，而忽略了探析事件背后的一系列复杂的原因。简洁点说：因为我们以往的印象中国是和谐的，是他国的形象中是美好的，当这突如其来的一系列事件，让我们知道其实并不是完美的，形成了巨大的心理落差，愤怒的声音愈加得强烈。
Why do events occurred these days make so many Chinese angry? Well, the events do make us angry. However, I feel there is blindness in the anger, which is stirred up. On the other hand, the anger only points at these events but ignores the complicate background behind these events. Let me put it simple: Our impression of China is harmonic, and we think foreigners have good impression on us. When these events occurred, we found not everything is as perfect as we think, and this cognitive conflict makes our anger more furious.
On the other hand, Hua-Bin Jing argued if doing these anti-boycott activities is patriotic, not everyone can be this kind of patriotic:
有网友说‘既为奥运会捐款，还为海外势力抵制奥运会而大声疾呼；这样的人不爱国，难道是那些无动于衷的人爱国’。
Some people said, ‘if a person donates money to the Olympic Game in Beijing and confronts the boycott to the Olympic game in other countries, how can we say this person is not patriotic? Would you say the people who do not care patriotic?'
如此说来，腐败分子的确比我们下岗人员爱国；因为我们下岗人既没有钱捐，也没有时间来参加活动。是啊！我们机关事业单位的人参加游行抗议，国家还给他们钱；而我们下岗人员参加游行抗议，却不知谁给我们工资。
If this is how we define a patriot, those corrupt people are more patriotic than us, who are laid off. We do not have money to donate, and we do not have time to join these activities. Well, the government paid people working in institutions money if they joined these protests, but we do not know who would pay us if we joined these protests.
腐败分子，是指那些贪污受贿、生活腐化、以权谋私、侵吞国家或集体财产等的人。
Corrupt people means people who are corrupt in the government and in their own lives. They embezzle the money of our country, which is we people's property.
同样是祖国的儿女，也有亲疏贵贱之分；看我们的高管，[…]年薪6000多万。而老百姓[…]收入也不到他的六千分之一；也就是说 我们的高管一年，相当于老百姓的6000年。祖国这样爱他们，他们能不爱国吗；因为他们并不是公平竞争的结果，[…]你比他们能力强，祖国只爱他们而不爱你；你有什么办法呢。
We are all sons and daughters of our country, but we are treated differently. Look at the elite:[…] their salary is more than sixty millions RMB. However, the average salary of us is less than their 1/6000. In other words, an year for them is 6000 years for a common person. Our country loves them so much, so how can they not love this country?–They become elite not from fair competition.[…] Maybe your ability is better than theirs, but the country still loves them more. What can you do?
这爱国是遗传的，下岗人员没有能力爱国；他们的子女同样也没有能力爱国。看我们的下岗人员的子女，不是因为没有钱上大学而过早地为生活奔波；就是因为贷款读书而背包袱。
As a result, patriotism is inherited. We people without job cannot be patriotic, and our children are not able to be, either. Look at our children, they either work when they are very young because they do not have money to attend colleges or live very hard because of the loan.
Da-Da-De-You discussed how to define the target for patriotism,
如果国只是民族的、文化的概念，则腐败分子是不爱国的，它们只是卖国贼。如果“国”即政权，当然，它们就是最爱国的一群人，因为正是这样的国给了它们腐败的机会。
If the target is ethnicity- or culture-based concept, those corrupt people are not patriotic. Instead, they sell our country. If the target is the government, the ruling party, of course, they are the most patriotic, because this government gives them opportunity to be corrupt.
Feng-Yen-Feng-You said those “patriots” oversea are traitors:
那些闹得最欢的海外”爱国人士”，[…]他们真要爱国，就应该废掉他们洋国公民身份，撕碎绿卡，回国来。按他们爱国的标准，他们中有的人是双重的背叛：先是背叛了生养他的祖国，投奔了被他们所视为的”敌国”；然后又背叛了他们所属的洋国，声称爱他们所属的洋国的”敌国”。
Those oversea “patriots” acted too furious.[…] If they really love our country, they should void their identity as foreigners, rip their green cards, and come back China. Based on their standard of patriotism, some of them are traitors to two countries: they betrayed their motherland to be citizens in a country they viewed as “enemy,” and they betray those countries and claim they belong to the “enemy” of those countries.
Touch123456 also argued what a patriot should do,
反腐败才是真正的爱国, 因为他们这群混蛋正在从人民身上喝血。
Anti-corrupt is what a patriot should do, because those corrupt assholes are sucking our blood.
You-Ren Li said the correct way to patriotism is to study the history and to find a way to build a new country.
作为一个爱国青年，要知道怎么爱国，首要的便是了解这个国家的历史。[…]知道历史的细节，便明了这个国家真正需要个体做的是什么。 […]“五四”的传统不是“破坏”，而是反省之后重建，反省历史，反省传统，创造一个经济、制度、文化、科技、人性上都崭新的国家。
Being a young patriot, the first thing we should do is studying this country's history if we want to know how to be patriotic.[…] If we know history, we know what we really need to do for this country.[…] The tradition of
May Fourth Movement is not to destroy but to create after reflection. Reflecting the history and tradition, and we can build a new country, economically, systematically, culturally, technologically, and humanistically.
Ah, so much bitterness here from the select few Chinese who are obviously upset or maybe simply envious. Apparently it hasn’t occurred to some that the Overseas Chinese are demonstrating not to show their love for China the country but rather to celebrate their Chinese heritage. It looks like someone else on the bbs has it right though. http://club2.cat898.com/newbbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=1&id=2218221
On the pro-China demonstrations which went around the world, I for one think they have been fantastic and extremely useful to advance the Chinese influence outside of China. I do not believe I have ever seen this many Chinese expats around the world stood up in unison before to demonstrate their pride. Regardless of how conservatives and right wingnuts in other nations receive this, it does send the clear message that Chinese expats can be mobilized and act on a certain cause.
Lastly, although I disagree with many of the sentiments expressed across various Chinese forums, I am happy to observe the diverse voices expressed in them. Chinese netizens are clearly not as single-minded as many in the West and Taiwan would like them to be.
I would also like to add that many of these posts are directed at a certain Chinese student in Korea beating up a Korean local during the torch relay. The act was rather stupid and should be criticized.
Without the proper context, this blog entry is rather misleading.
1) I see no issue with supporting your home country with a sea of flags(I read the whole post). I don’t think people think twice about seeing French/Italian etc flags displayed outside of their own country.
2) I do see a problem if the protests turn violent with Chinese as aggressors…then it does tarnish the image of Chinese abroad. I read the blogs on the Korean protests; if true(the blogger is clearly very biased against China), then the violence should be condemned.
3) As an American, I am loyal to this country; however, I also realize it is to the best interest of myself, my family and other Chinese Americans that differences and misunderstandings between US and China be resolved; and biases and unfair reportings aired. I do not hope for a relationship between US and China like the one between US and Britain; but I hope for the best.
Good information to share.
We Chinese have to admit all the real problems that we are facing, and open up to suggestion and discussion from outside.
After seeing these messsages, at least they westerner would know a little bit more about China, and they could understand the country is not full of brain-washed idiot, like they imagined.
[…] translations of different takes on Chinese demonstrations of patriotism at Global Voices: This torch relay around the world was sabotaged by those “patriotic” oversea Chinese. In the […]
ur chinese friend>>
You took an interesting `spin` on these reactions. Firstly, you label these bloggers as an envious, bitter minority when you say: `so much bitterness here from the select few Chinese who are obviously upset or maybe simply envious.` I`d like to argue instead that perhaps these bloggers are in fact representative of a much larger minority who found these protests embarassing.
You further `spin` these posts by stating they are reacting to `a certain Chinese student in Korea beating up a Korean local during the torch relay`. Try going on YouTube and searching, `Torch relay violence Korea` and see what comes up. It was hardly a case of one Chinese student beating up one Korean local. It was mobs of angry Chinese students assaulting protestors with stones, tools and bottles. I`m also curious if you`ve seen the video of another mob of dozens of Chinese students assaulting someone (be they Tibetan, Korean or otherwise), as well as security guards, in a hotel in Seoul.
I would also argue that the majority of these protests are comprised of overseas students, not expats in the sense that they are Korean, Japanese, American, British or French citizens (or permenant residents). If the Chinese government did in fact encourage these protests and bus students in along the route, they certainly owe the Koreans an apology.
I think the Olympics is a great opportunity for Chinese to take pride in their nation and express themselves a little more clearly to the rest of the world. But be careful with what kind of message you are sending. Quite contrary to your belief that these protests are fueling Chinese influence overseas they are, in my opinion, creating grounds for tighter control on the amount of Chinese students allowed into foreign countries and even more frighteningly, encouraging anti-Chinese sentiment.
While I welcome and support Chinese peoples` right to express their support for their country and this year`s Olympics, I strongly question whether these protests are doing anything other than confirming stereotypes and biases against Chinese held by locals in the countries where the relays are taking place. Articles in Korean newspapers (see yesterday`s The Herald and The Times), as well as speaking to my Japanese friends here in Japan, would support my opinion.
I think the Chinese student was a Korean faker. Who knows, South Koreans are poodles of U.S.A They hired a Korean to fake as a Chinese Student to beat up an old guy to make Chinese Student look bad that’s all! Americans came up with the plan to accuse Chinese of faking as Tibetan, and with CNN, BBC lies etc, I am not suprised Bush is playing the double standards.
Some young Chinese are expressing their patriot in an inappropriat way. I don’t like the violent part, but I do respect the thought of patriot. I may not stay calm if some forgeiner burn up my national flag infront of me. No need to blame too hard on these kids.
Yet people have got to open their minds, and see WHY they get so invoked.
Its sheer madness. Not patriotism.
Knights>>
I have a great flying carpet I’ll sell you for cheap.
Karze
You might choose to ignore many Chinese’s calm debate here and many of those demonstrating on the street. The reason is your dislike or hate towards China.
You have no right to judge their patriotism. To you, patriotism is a positive word which should not apply to Chinese, right?
You need to adjust. Otherwise, the rest of your life will be in sadness watching China moving towards the reverse direction you have been wishing.
Pray harder.
lots of talk about patriotism(nationalism). u.s. and china are not so different. we have many violent nationalists who make war for their own edification. it is very refreshing to read chinese citizens who are brave enough to criticize the state of their lot in china.
Kneecap wrote:”You took an interesting `spin` on these reactions. Firstly, you label these bloggers as an envious, bitter minority when you say: `so much bitterness here from the select few Chinese who are obviously upset or maybe simply envious.` I`d like to argue instead that perhaps these bloggers are in fact representative of a much larger minority who found these protests embarassing.”
Kneecap, I think you are doing some good spinning yourself for someone who doesn’t appear to read the Chinese forums often. If you actually can, or be bothered to read comments and other posts in the same site, you will be able to learn that the “bloggers” who wrote the quoted comments and their supporters think all Chinese who migrated to the west are either kids of corrupt government officials or dirty capitalists. If that is not envy and bitterness I don’t know what is. If you think these “bloggers” represent a larger minority of bloggers who find these protests embarrassing, then I would like you give me the evidence of that. In fact, I wonder just how many non-translated Chinese forums do you even read.
“I would also argue that the majority of these protests are comprised of overseas students, not expats in the sense that they are Korean, Japanese, American, British or French citizens (or permenant residents).”
At this point I would like to comment that you are not very good at arguments and are easily swayed by confirmation bias. I was at the SF rally and I can assure that many of us are US citizens who graduated from the top universities with good jobs, taking a day off to support our heritage and ancestral land’s accomplishments. The pro-Olympic protests are upsetting the “locals” you say? Why we are the locals. While this will surely dismay some racists who believe that Americans must be black or white, 20% of SF are Chinese Americans! Now, if you would like to still argue that we are not “locals” again I would like to see you to provide some evidence.
“Quite contrary to your belief that these protests are fueling Chinese influence overseas they are, in my opinion, creating grounds for tighter control on the amount of Chinese students allowed into foreign countries and even more frighteningly, encouraging anti-Chinese sentiment.”
I recall reading SF Gate comments on the coverage of the SF Rally. It’s difficult not to notice the repeated questionings of whether 2nd, 3rd, or even older generations of American Chinese are truly loyal to America, or are even Americans at all. They can’t be US citizens, they must be exchange students! Many even suggested that Chinese Americans should be interned like the Japanese during WWII. Is this kind of thinking familiar to you kneecap? While there are many racists out there who would hope for a tighter control of just about everyone from everywhere, reality will prove this to be difficult. In US Grad schools the foreign students population has been hovering between 40 to 50%. Chinese grad students represent the second largest body of grad students in US universities, behind India. After 9/11 US Universities have been lobbying the government to relax VISA rules so to combat the brain drain which will affect US’ competitiveness on the long run. Also, there is a strong correlation between education levels and income. Never mind the existing Chinese Americans whose education and income levels are already higher than most other groups, the Chinese exchange students in the US are well positioned to become next batch of model Americans as well. Statistically speaking, there is no more desirable candidate for citizenship than highly educated, highly skilled, and highly paid workers. The Chinese students whom many people hate fits this category nicely.
“Try going on YouTube and searching, `Torch relay violence Korea` and see what comes up. ”
I am not trying to defend the Chinese protesters, who have been mostly civil if you would add up all the people from both sides who were actually arrested in the protests, but if you want to talk about Youtube videos I can also ask you to look up videos of the Japanese/Tibetan kicking pro-China protesters in Japan, which I am sure your Japanese friends have told you about. In fact, we can argue all day long about which protesters behaved worse starting with videos of Tibetans gang beating Chinese, and Tibetan man harassing the wheelchaired lady in France. Pot calling kettle black is not going to get us anywhere.
Instead, I can say tell you that I am very happy to know the Chinese students who assaulted the Korean man will be arrested and deported, as I believe that people should take responsibilities for their own actions. I am also ashamed of what they had done in their host countries. Now, can you say you feel the same for the Tibetans during the riot and Japanese/Tibetan during the Nagano torch relay?
hm, very interesting, rumor has it that the Chinese student (could be Korean Faker) gets deported. How come the tibetan man who harrased Jin Jing in public three times, pulling her hair, and trying to snatch the torch from her,was NOT deported????????????????????????????????????
What about the people who threw rocks/stones etc pro-China supporters eh???????????????????????????????
Korea is a racist country. Korea is very thankful for U.S.A splitted it in half, too bad U.S.A tried to split Vietnam, but failed - tough luck!!!!
To all the dear friends from China,
It’s our great honor to have you join this interesting discussion. It would be even greater if you can provide evidence when you make a claim about “the majority of Chinese” or when you accuse someone attacked pro-China people. Thanks.
ur chinese friend>>
See, now that post was much more rational than your first one. Admittedly, I can’t read Chinese but there are a fair amount of Chinese posting in English or sites like this that translate from Chinese into English, that I try to at least get as fairly a balanced viewpoint as possible.
Excuse my bias, but when I’ve repeatedly heard evidence in a variety of media outlets (spanning from London, to SF, to Nagano, to Seoul) that the respective consulates of these areas are encouraging overseas students (who by my understanding, aren’t allowed to take part in political rallies anyways) to “be patriotic”, I’m going to at least ASSUME a large portion of these protestors are overseas students. I never said they were ALL overseas students and I’m sure there’s a sizeable contingent of Chinese-Americans/Britons/French etc there as well. However, I would be interested to see which of those two groups comprised the majority. In most of the pictures I’ve seen in western media, and in the pro-China videos on YouTube or the antiCNNs, the vast majority of protestors are younger, which would confirm the idea that they’re University aged. As for whether they’re Chinese students, well, I’m going to go with the evidence I have before me, which suggests they are, until I can find evidence to the contrary. If you’re in possession of such evidence, I’ll gladly study it and if it seems legit, I’m not above apologizing and retracting what I’ve said.
Again let me clarify, I’m not disagreeing that some protestors are Chinese-American. I just think they’re a minority.
You think Chinese students are the next model Americans? Hmmm…? What percentage of those graduates are staying in America and starting careers in America vs. those that return home?
Of course you’re going to have people saying what they will about Chinese-Americans loyalty to their country. I don’t know where you read those comments, but it’s quite typical of any nationality or ethnic group to make racially-charged statements when they have the anonymity of a newspaper or the internet to hide behind. It’s disgusting and I don’t agree with it at all. But I digress, I guess you were agreeing with me at this point? I don’t see anything wrong with Chinese or Chinese-Americans expressing their support for the Olympics in China, but as soon as they turn violent or start bullying people from opposing points of view, they’re not doing their cause any favor.
I’m not the pot calling the kettle black. The Tibetan protestors’ actions were deplorable. And yes, I did see the Japanese kicking the Chinese student in the face (but there’s a whole different story behind that, I’d suggest you look up the Japanese Uyoku “右翼”). I don’t support violent protest of any kind. But when I read your initial post and you said “certain Chinese student in Korea beating up a Korean local during the torch relay” then went on to suggest this post is misleading without the context, it brought your whole argument into question for me. What happened in Korea went FAR beyond one student beating up one Korean. While we should condemn the actions of pro-Tibetan protestors who use violence, I haven’t seen much evidence suggesting their actions have been done en masse. They have instead been the actions of small groups or individuals. Keep in mind the pro-Tibet camp is outnumbered 10 to 1 at most of these protests. But what I saw in Korea, was large groups of Chinese students attacking any camp that was protesting the China government.
Perhaps Tibet is a sensitive issue. But explain the attacks in Korea on those who were protesting China’s treatment of North Korean refugees. And again, the consulate comes under criticism for encouraging students to partake in the rallies. And now the government is coming under pressure to tighten controls on Chinese students allowed into Korea.
Cheers.
p.s. “At this point I would like to comment that you are not very good at arguments and are easily swayed by confirmation bias.”
While I think you are quite articulate, stating the opposing side is simply “weak at arguing” is indictive of weak minds. I’m not attacking you personally, and I’d appreciate the same respect.
Kneecap:
I can’t speak for people that were at the torch relay in Korea or Japan, but I can tell you that the vast majority of the people that showed up in San Francisco, on the 9th, in support of the torch and Beijing Olympics were people from the greater bay area and the Silicon Valley. Many of those had to take a day off from work to show their support.
The same was true on the 26th of April, when ~ 3000 - 5000 Chinese-Americans from both sides of the straits showed up in San Francisco branch of the CNN office to protest what they perceived as media bias. Don’t be surprised if you haven’t heard of this one. It wasn’t covered by any English speaking TV Station or Newspapers (not even the SF Chronicle). It got to make you wonder why, right?
Although I do tend agree with “ur chinese friend” about you having a sort of “confirmation bias”, it may not be entirely your fault. You think the Chinese media is bad. Take a look at our own. You can google the SF CNN protest and see how many hits you get. And make sure not to confuse it with the LA CNN protest on the 19th.
Also, you sound like an intelligent person. So, think about the plausibility that the Chinese Government is this incredible monolith that has absolute control over its citizens even when they are abroad. While you are at it, why stop with the students. Why not the entire Chinese Diaspora? Or do they just not care?
Best
Kain
There are two general methods to control human beings’ behavior: Moral values and Laws.
Laws, is rather simple. Black and white. In principle, same rules apply to everyone.
Moral values are not. Depending what culture you are from. Western culture is more individual and Asian is more collectivism. Therefore, difference in culture will result in different moral value.
What does it mean? It implies that it is not always fair to use your moral values to judge others, no matter how holy you think your God or Godess are.
So, how to deal with it? The easiest way is to use laws. Laws should be above all the moral values in principle.
For those Chinese students who took aggressive actions during the torch relay, it is pretty simple that there is a law to apply. Do according to the law, use legal actions to find the resolution. That will satisfy all.
It is pointless to argue whether they are right or wrong. And, clearly, they fought because they thought they were right.
By the way, history repeats itself. It is all about economic resource competition. Moral values could be excuses at all. For those unaware of the 1840 war in China, it was about free trade war including selling opium in China. Chinese really learned it a hard way.
It is all about business, kids.
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm Karze: 463
…
Unlike Chinese we don’t eat all thats is moving. From worms to rats, snake to dog, crab to jelly fish, tiger to dog and even mosquito.
There is saying in Chinese “Everything can be eaten theat moves”,
This is what our friend Karze has to say about Chinese on the other thread…I trust he does not speak for all of Free Tibet movement? ;)
@ifan
I trust you know about the people who attacked the torch runners? If you need evidence, please go find them yourself. It’s all over the news. As for this board, see my prior post. Nice, right?
As far as going against the majority of the Chinese people, this is a feeling, the same as you don’t need the polls to tell you that Bush is unpopular in US. You or the well meaning people may choose to not believe this and still believe these protests are levied only against the CCP and not against the people of China; that is your choice; but ignoring that does no good for whatever goals you might want to reach. All my friends who were protesting against the Chinese government in 1989 are entirely on the side of promoting Olympics this time; some of them I know who have terrible things done to them by the CCP in the past. That says a lot.
The Chinese student arrested in Seoul was in fact Chinese. He was not alone. He was with a large group of students from a Chinese Student Association in Pusan. They wore white t-shirts with the name of their student group, which made them easy to catch. The student was shown on Korean television. He could not speak Korean fluently. It is naive to think a Chinese cannot be violent, it must have been a “Korean faker.” Every country has its idiots.
The Chinese who came to the torch relay included both Chinese students and Chinese residents of Korea.
Kneecap is right that Chinese students attacked not just Tibet protestors but also North Korea human rights protestors. China signed the UN agreement to protect refugees, yet it sends back North Korean refugees in violation of the agreement. It is not anti-Chinese to protest the fact that the Chinese government does not respect a UN agreement which it signed.
And it is important to note that the North Korean human rights protestors did not try to stop the torch relay. They were across from Olympic Park. The Chinese students saw them and crossed the street to confront them.
I think a bit of logic would help this:
Why would the Communist Party NOT try to keep control PRC students who go overseas? They have such tight control in China, you expect them to give it all up completely when their children go to the USA or other places to study?
If we discourage brain drain, then those students should come back. If they are in the youth leage (i.e. will be in party later), then when they come back they have to write about their experiences in the foreign country and re-state their patriotism to China, and I’m sure many eye is kept on them.
If they are not in the party, the control is a lot less, but if the party finds out they have been involved in some non-pro-China political events, then I am sure trouble will happen when they get back!
Also remember, the students who really like a certain foreign country or really want to move abroad will try their best to get out and stay out while they are studying aborad. But the majority of the Chinese who go don’t really want to learn about that other country’s culture, they perhaps don’t care which country they go to, they just want to put that on their resume so they can get more money in the future. So why should they assimilate and learn? Why shouldn’t they continue to act like party-control students when they are abroad?
If the party says ‘Counter-protest!’ they will ask ‘How hard should we throw the rocks?’
Jesse:
Your flawless logic shines through rather brilliantly!!
Perhaps, I think a bit of logic lesson would help.
Where should I begin?
Here are a few “blemishes” that pop right out in your post.
1. Begging the question
2. Faulty premise
3. Appeal to belief
4. Slippery slope
Plus, I asked “Kneecap” whether they CAN, not whether they WANT TO. If you don’t understand the difference, then it is going to be quite hard to carry out a rational conversation.
But there is a comforting fact though. A lot of your flag waving, ultra-nationalistic, “Pro-China” counterparts make the same kind of crappy arguments too. Tell me if the following sounds familiar: “The Pro-Tibet and Anti-China protesters don’t know what they are talking about. Most don’t even know where Tibet is (this part is true, you can youtube it). They are brainwashed by the FBI, CIA, and “Homeland Insecurity”. They are just echoing whatever the FBI, CIA, and the other guys beam to their fillings. What all know that the CIA implant computer chips (in tooth fillings, Vaccines, and whatever you can fill in the blank) in their citizens and allies. Why else would they have a differing opinion?”
You do understand how ridiculous and dismissive this kind of arguments can be, right?
Best
Kain
my_mother>>
Perhaps I stand corrected. I wasn’t at the rallies in SF, so you’d know better than I what the composition of the crowd was like. But can we at least agree that there’s evidence that the Chinese consulates abroad have actively encouraged Chinese students to take part in these rallies? And they did so despite knowing the problems that likely would occur.
To Paren,
The argument by China about the North Korean refugee is that (if I remember correctly) there is a difference between political refugees and economic refugees. The economic refugees will be sent back to China. In reality, if all the refugees from North Korea will be sent to South, assuming, I am not sure whether South Korea will agree. Secondly, that will INDUCE a refugee wave from North Korea. It is not benefitial to China’s interest. Why should China do that? (I am not judging right or wrong.)
As for the pro-China students fighting in Korea, I believe the organizor surely told them not to use violence. Unfortunately, some of them used as the anger burst. It is stupid and not worth. Young men, too emotional, not smart enough. Again, it is against China’s interest as they know clearly. I have to mention that a lot of sentiment in Korea is about North Korea-China-South Korea. Tibet topic is just an OPPORTUNITY, rather a real issue.
Jesse,
I am kind of lost in your comment 25. However, clearly you dont understand Chinese culture very much. Sure, Chinese went oversea for study. But their care towards homeland will be always there, even if China is more controlled and even backward.
To all the China haters here, (sorry to call you so)
Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has done a good job to develop the country into worldmap again. Although they are still far from democratic party, the Chinese people clearly dont care too much about demoncracy as you guys do. To ordinary people, money, house, food and even cars are more important than the ideology. That is why they are showing the support to the government. Torch relay just proved it. Calling them brain washed is simply lack of respects to them.
What China has achieved in last 30 years is way more than What China had been trying to achieve in the last 300-500 years. If you really spent time to study Chinese history from Ming Dynasty onwards.
Chinese all know. But you guys dont. That is where the gap is.
If your neighbor brings a coffin into your wedding, what would you do?
@Paren
My personal belief is that Olympics events should not be a stage for any political issue; but if people chose to make that a political stage, no violence should be used. This applies to both sides.
Now before you say NK refugees are not political, let me remind you that there are 2 land borders to NK; why do we not hear more pressure to open up the southern border and why SK has not opened any NK refugee camps? Why is there not any international outcry?
If China is really going to crack down on NK refugees, I doubt there can be as many NK refugees working in North East China as there are now. You should appreciate the Chinese position and take what you can get.
Its sheer JINGOISM.
subjectivelistener:
I really really hate when people like you say “oh you don’t understand Chinese culture”. How do you know I don’t understand? What makes you think you understand? You think I live under some rock and learn everything from watching the cable news and reading some chicken bones?
I won’t make assumptions about what you do or do not know since I do not know what you do or do not know. But I do know what I know, and I know that have talked to many many chinese students, ones who have gone abroad and come back, and who have gone abroad and stayed there, and all other types as well, so I think I am pretty sure about my claims from my personal experience.
One’s homeland is always in the back of one’s mind, but however much it would be easy, you cannot paint all Chinese with the same brush. I have many friends who violently want to go abroad and stay there, and many who are fine with being in China, and only go abroad to get experience to put on their resume to make more money when they come back. (I am sure I have many ‘friends’ who just want to use me to practice their English, but that’s another story).
My point was that, of course a lot of this is influenced by the party, using Chinese students studying abroad to influnece the internal affairs of another country. That’s the logical thing for them to do, and it’s probably only fair for China to start playing by the USA’s rules. But then, who wants there to be two USAs?
Also, I think we should ignore this “democracy” nonsense. May be all that people want is some control in their life, some say in what happens. If Chinese don’t then you should get up and support the party, but make sure you know the difference between supporting China and supporting the communist party, they are certainly different things. If you’re waving the red flag with 5 stars, who does that really support?
Olympics as non-political?!?! Who decided that?
Isn’t showing how wonderful and developed and modern and polite China has become and how great the CPC is a political event?
And if it’s not political then how come the team from Taiwan is forbidden from using the Republic of China flag and has to call itself “China-Taipei”? And not just at the olympics! I remember an event at a swimming competition in Thailand, the team from Taiwan won and when they were getting the medal the team from mainland China came over and took their national flag from them! That is certainly political!
The U.S., UK, France, Germany, and Canada grossly
violate the whole people (the 56 minorities and Han) living in China’s human rights by sabotaging our first chance to host the Olympics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Our freedom to express ourselves to the world is sabotaged, muted by CNN/BBC, how can they (countries mentioned above) fight for tibetan’s and Chinese freedom of expression in China when they take away 1.6 billion people’s freedom of expression worldwide??????????????????????????????????
Americans should run the human rights torch through Iraq, and see what happens!!!!
@Jesse
-> If you’re waving the red flag with 5 stars, who does that really support?
China…which happens to be ruled by the CCP. I do not like the CCP; but I support China and her right of territorial integrity. You still don’t get…or refuse to believe that people can show support for this olympics, against the free Tibet movement, and not like the CCP a bit.
-> Isn’t showing how wonderful and developed and modern and polite China has become and how great the CPC is a political event?
The first part no….second part yes; but I do not think the slogan has one world, one dream, one CCP in it? ;) Of course, the ruling government inherently gets credited for holding a sucessful game, but I think the more political thing this year is people trying to ruin the experience for Chinese citizens with no political asperations to show up the Chinese government with no regards to the general Chinese populace of which they claim they undstand and speak for.
-> I really really hate when people like you say “oh you don’t understand Chinese culture”.
Well, you are going to hear it again…You may think you understand but you still don’t understand.
Kneecap:
Again, I can’t speak on how the “Pro-China” protests were organized in Korea and Japan. But for the Chinese students that were at the SF torch relay on the 9th, their trips were organized by various student organizations. Transportation to SF for most was organized independently, and some, due their lack of familiarity with the local transportation system, were organized with the help of the Chinese consulate. Almost all had to out their own pockets the transportation fees, ~ $100 (us).
Of course, this kind of detail is omitted in the news media. What gets reported is along similar manner as the following from the San Francisco Chronicle: “Many of the pro-torch demonstrators carried red Chinese flags and said they were bused in by the Chinese Consulate and other pro-China groups, though others said they had come of their own accord.” This kind of reporting, although technically accurate, is quite misleading in their wording and omission of details.
Naturally, the responses that we see with this kind of reporting are stuff like, “All paid for by the Chinese government?” To comments that reflect outright racial hatred and hysteria: “I can’t believe they bused in Ch*nks!” “Bomb China!” “If the US and China ever come in to conflict, we got to keep an eye on /[round up] the Chinese over here.” And the ever popular: “Ch*nks go home!” Or the milder version, “If they don’t like it here in the US, then leave.”
All these comments were snippets culled from the SF chronicle website (SFgate.com) around the 9th of April. At one point, of the more 3000 comments at posted on the 9th, a good size chunk had to be removed because of their racial nature. It is kind of funny that now there are tons of posted comments that are responses to “Phantom Posts”.
So, Kneecap, you kind of have to rethink who is getting led around by their noses, the Chinese by their government or us by our own media and our ignorance.
Also, I hope you know that some of the scuffles in Canberra and Nagano were started by racial slurs like the ones above (of course with their own local flavor).
As for the 3000 – 5000 people that showed on the 26th to protest CNN, the vast majority were locals.
Best
Kain
Jesse:
Again you have to be careful about presenting a false dichotomy.
People that waving Red flags are not necessary Pro-Chinese Government or anti-democracy. It may simply represent their modern national identity. If the nationalist were still in charge, I will bet you they will probably be swinging the nationalist’s flag. Or if their national flag is a pizza, they probaly be swinging a pizza on a stick.
Best
Kain
“The argument by China about the North Korean refugee is that (if I remember correctly) there is a difference between political refugees and economic refugees. The economic refugees will be sent back to China. In reality, if all the refugees from North Korea will be sent to South, assuming, I am not sure whether South Korea will agree. Secondly, that will INDUCE a refugee wave from North Korea. It is not benefitial to China’s interest. Why should China do that? “
China signed the agreement. China is responsible for upholding it. In the past ten years, Korea was controlled by a leftist government that ignored the plight of North Korean refugees in order not to upset North Korea. However, the new president is quite conservative, and the Korean media has become more critical of North Korea. Not all the refugees want to go to South Korea. Some want to go to the US instead, and already a few have gone either from South Korea or from another country. If China allows the refugees to leave, that will not create a flood because it is still very, very, very hard to leave North Korea. As for the difference between political and economic refugees, ALL North Korean refugees qualify as political refugees because there is a real possibility of persecution upon return, a key qualification in the UN definition. They may leave because they’re hungry, but if they’re returned, they’ll end up in a concentration camp if they’re lucky, shot or hanged if they’re not. I’ve not heard of the PRC recognizing a single North Korean refugee. All of the North Koreans who’ve left either escaped to another country or managed to get inside an embassy.
At least you are debating the issue logically, subjectivelistener, unlike Wei, who wrote:
My personal belief is that Olympics events should not be a stage for any political issue; but if people chose to make that a political stage, no violence should be used. This applies to both sides.
Now before you say NK refugees are not political, let me remind you that there are 2 land borders to NK; why do we not hear more pressure to open up the southern border and why SK has not opened any NK refugee camps? Why is there not any international outcry?
That is your personal belief, but in Korea, the US, and elsewhere demonstrators enjoy constitutional protections for freedom of speech and expression. Most of the violence was from Chinese students. Photos and videos on international and Chinese websites bear this out. There are plenty of images of Chinese hitting and kicking Koreans and foreigners, but none of a Chinese being attacked. There is only a photo of a man holding a bicycle over his head (but not actually hitting anyone, that is just an unsubstantiated rumor) and a photo of a Chinese student holding tissues to his head.
As for North Koreans fleeing across the north-south border, also known as the DMZ, a few do. Recently, an army officer came across. However, this border crossing is much more dangerous than getting over the Tumen or Yalu Rivers, for the DMZ is the most heavily fortified border in the world.
Even if you support your government’s policy of repatriating North Korean refugees, at least recognize why others disagree and advocate for these desperate people. The plight of North Korean refugees and China’s refusal to honor the UN agreement is not an internal affair. It is an international issue; criticism of China’s handling of the refugees is not anti-Chinese any more than criticizing the US invasion of Iraq is anti-American.
@my_mother
I was at the SF rally.
I am out 8 hours of PTO :)
Thank you for writing something I don’t have the time to write.
I agree with My_mother,
It brings out the true ugly face of some westerners who insisted that they cared for Chinese and tibetans. Well finally their racial slurs released the Nazi nature beast that hide within their evil souls!!!!
“If you do not do as we say, you will be met with reprisals!” NAZI decendents!!!!!
Thanks for the info, Wei.
I did not question a specific point, but for our general discussion. If anyone wants to say something, he or she speaks for him/her-self, but if someone wants to say “the majority,” it’s better to provide proof for other people to think about the situation.
If you want to discuss a specific case like the protests in several countries, I agree there were many Chinese supporting these activities due to patriotism, and this is why I wrote this article.
Knights,
I guess you should find out what human rights mean. We have many rights, and the basic human right is living free and without fear. Because this world is shared by many people, we cannot do whatever we want, but we can at least not killing people and threatening people. If CCP oppressed Tibetans’ voice, with blood or without, there is a human right problem. The right China can hold this Olympic game is given by IOC (international Olympic committee), which represent all the countries joining the Olympics. IOC agrees that people have right to protest during the torch relay. If CCP or any Chinese has problem with this, I guess you should talk to IOC.
Wei:
And who said I understand? If I made any great claims to knowing everything then please quote me. Just because you think you understand and think that I think that I understand doesn’t mean I understand. I have some observations and questions, that is all. Again, you should reall avoid personal attacks on people you don’t know and focus again on the questions I was asking.
About the flag, what I meant, and perhaps is hard for you to understand, is that when you wave the flag of a country you support not only the country but also the government running it. Many people in the USA don’t like to wave the flag becasue then people will conflate it with support for Bush. Many Germans were telling me that Germans rarely waved the German flag until the recently, and then only duiring some sporting events, because many didn’t feel ‘proud’ of it.
If the CCP and the Chinese people are really so different, then the people maybe have to start showing it a little more. Instead we just see people repeating the party line over and over “so and so is an inalienable part of China” “so and so is, has been and will always be a part of China” “so and so is an internal affair of China” etc etc. If the people only repeat the government’s phrases and can only protest causes that are in line with the gov’t’s policy, what impression does that give to observers?
The point of having a “naitonal” flag is to represent a nation? or a country? or a culture?
The Communist Party is very strong in believeing the People’s Republic of China flag should represent all Chinese all over the world, it seems to be, and by getting people to use one flag to represent China and the People’s Republic of China, that ends up conflating the two together so people cannot tell the difference.
Why did the PRC cause the Republic of China flag to be banned at international events? Why do most Chinese think the Tibetan flag ONLY be a symbol of Tibetan Independence and not the Tibetan nation? I believe Hong Kong and Macau can occasionally use their flags, but what flags can the 4 China teams use at the Olympics?
My point is, if people want to support the Olympics and NOT the Communist Party then why not use the Olympic flag or some other neutral flag? Or the flag that Sun Yat-sen designed before? If you use the PRC flag it implies many things, that you support China, that you support the Party, and both at the same time. But then that’s the whole point of any country having a single flag. They might not be pro-this or anti-that, but waving the PRC flag is not meaningless!
Of course if the Nationalists were in charge they would be using that flag. But again, if they had stayed in charge of all of China, I am sure we would have had the Nanjing Olympics over 30 years ago! ;-P
“So, Kneecap, you kind of have to rethink who is getting led around by their noses, the Chinese by their government or us by our own media and our ignorance.”
You are right that misleading reporting can be fodder for bashing other nationalities and hurling racial slurs. I witnessed something similar on Chinese forum threads relating to the Seoul torch relay:
????????
A despicable country! (referring to Korea)
???!
Kill those bangzi (bangzi is an anti-Korean slur used by Chinese)
????????????,????!
Koreans and Japanese are all the same - mean and shameless!
??????????????????????????????
A Korean group shouting slogans about North Korea at China, how come you don’t cry to your big American daddy?
These are a few examples of the overwhelmingly nasty Chinese netizen response to the clashes that took place in Seoul. Chinese say “Don’t be too CNN,” but the Chinese media, including online news portals like Sina and 163.com, isn’t exactly objective. Message boards attached to news stories about Korea, Japan, or the US especially are filled with hate spew. Korean netizens are no better, hurling equally bigoted anti-Chinese, anti-Japanese, and anti-American invectives. The media loves a sensational story, and the anonymity of the internet is the refuge of scoundrels in every country it seems.
Hi,
This is a big misunderstanding on most peoples’ parts. I don’t think the Chinese people understand the CCP, I don’t think Westerners understand Chinese history, I don’t think Chinese people really know their own culture, I don’t think a lot of people realize that China is really important, so on so on..
My hope is that these kinds of conversations will move to the next levels and start to really dissolve misunderstandings through sharing understandings and information.
I really don’t think there is a need to fight between Chinese and Western people. I think if Chinese people are spewing party misinformation, it is not really their fault and they are really losing a lot of face and people need to help them, not insult them. And I think Chinese should try to look at China from a fresh perspective, realize what is fundamental human rights and why westerners sometimes have a bad impression from the Chinese regime..
Since more info is necessary to resolve issues, my position is that the CCP should be ousted by real good Chinese people.
Welcome to look at my new blog, maybe share your views so I can learn more myself…
Peace to all (- :
@jesse
You can try to burn an US flag in front of Republicans in congress and say you are protesting against the Democratic congress and see what they say about the flag represents…
Carry Anne,
I am sure many in China would like to take a look at your site, but for somereason I cannot get to it through the great firewall! Imagine that!
Some Chinese posted some funny patriotic songs on this windows live space blog. Enjoy them.
Guys, I came to realize the key difference in opinions is not about culture, not about China. It is purely about ideology.
Let us talk about CCP first. To Jesse, Ifan etc, CCP is the old communist evil. They do nothings but crimes. However, as I mentioned in previous message, to most of China Chinese, CCP had screwed up in the past but had improved a lot. The country has been going upwards for last 30 years constantly under their leadership. They are not evil at all, NOW.
If we can be calm and objectively look at CCP, do you really think they believe in communism? I dont. They are doing exactly the capitalism stuff, except the western style of democratic system.
Then back to democracy, why the older democratic India can not match exactly the development of China since they started so many years earlier in the RIGHT track? Even the Indian government claimed that they can not be more efficient to get things done as compared to Chinese government. In this sense, dictatorship government might have certain PRACTICAL advantage. CCP learns very fast. See how soon they agreed to meet with Dalai Lama’s team. Can you expect Kim Jing Il of North Korea do that?
Let us back to ideology again. What is so big deal about it? Using ideology to judge things is simply an excellent example of being brainwashed. (really sorry to say that, but it is bloody true.) Cold war nearly ended up with nuclear disasters in the planet. Why so many people are still enjoying the cold war mentality? Are you?
If you try NOT to evilize CCP, a lot of things will be easier to understand. To discuss the difference of China, Flag, and Government, CHinese people will not produce any meaningful result as some of them viewed them the same.
When a party can bring a country to be back to the glorious period of 300-500 years ago, no matter what name you call it, it deserves certain level of respect and understanding. If you dont, I have to say that you dont understand Chinese and China.
I am calm without anger.
Please do NOT lie about your freedom of speech! Chinese who just show enthusiam about the torch are being scorned at. The few extremists who violated the laws should be scorned at, not the whole group!!!!!
I wonder what would happen if you stand in front of the white house and bash at the president. I guess if you do it to foreign governments who visit the white house it is ok, but not at the American government!!!!!
Free speech has limitations!!!!! We need to apply for permits to protest, it’s not like we can just go and march around white the house.
@ Carry Anne:
> I think if Chinese people are spewing party misinformation, it is not really their fault and they are really losing a lot of face and people need to help them, not insult them.
Do you mean “all” Chinese people or “some” Chinese people? Oh, you have an “if”, so no objection. The reason I asked was that I do not think I am “spewing party misinformation”.
> And I think Chinese should try to look at China from a fresh perspective, realize what is fundamental human rights and why westerners sometimes have a bad impression from the Chinese regime.
Human rights do need a lot of improvement in China, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, that’s not the whole story. I wish things were that simple.
> Since more info is necessary to resolve issues, my position is that the CCP should be ousted by real good Chinese people.
I, for one, do not agree with your position on CCP. I do not think, at the present time, there is another group of people that can do a better job, for the benefits of Chinese people, than CCP. There are also some real good Chinese people in CCP (I should make it clear that CCP has a lot of problems). I appreciate your good will, but I do not agree with some of your opinions. Actually, I think some of your opinions/suggestions hurt Chinese people, even though you may have started out with good intentions. If it is just opinions, that’s not a big deal because we can disagree in opinions and there is no physical harm. On the other hand, if you start practicing some of your opinions (because e.g. you really believe you have the only truth) to “help” us/Chinese people, you actions will be regarded as hostile by me. You may think you are fighting a war to “save” us, but we may think those actions are hurting our interests so we need to fight back — it is called self-defense. Again, thanks for the good will. And I agree, we need more information to reach mutual understanding, and hopefully resolve conflicts peacefully.
@paren
Just answer the question: Why are there not any Refugee camps in South Korea? At the very least it would serve as a beacon of hope for the North Koreans. I think you know very well the answer.
Instead the focus is on China who is already bearing the blunt of the refugee burden. As I said somewhere before, if China actively wants all the refugees out of China and back to NK, I am sure there will be MUCH less refugees in China now.
I am no fan of NK’s government, but if South Koreans are interested in relieving the North Koreans why don’t they take more active role? All I hear is China is blah blah blah; which suggest your concern is not really with the well being of the North Koreans.
A bit Machiavellian, but such is the world we live in.
Carry Anne,
Here is where rubber meets the road:
1) Get rid of CCP
2) …
3) Profit(for the Chinese people and not others)!
… is the key. Okay, CCP is gone; now what?
Rather, one must realize you do not change a government of 1.3 billion over night and you won’t change things by putting up some website. Instead, look at how things have changed in the last 20 years and I for one think things will improve much more in the coming decades.
“Just answer the question: Why are there not any Refugee camps in South Korea? At the very least it would serve as a beacon of hope for the North Koreans. I think you know very well the answer.”
Yes, I do. There are no refugee camps because North Koreans are resettled into the population. They live in apartments and homes and go to school and work. South Korea is a beacon of hope for North Koreans.
Now getting back on topic, whatever you think of your government’s policy of repatriating North Korean refugees, it is still wrong to call refugee activists “anti-Chinese.” International North Korean refugee groups are dominated by ethnic Koreans and many non-ethnic Koreans have lived in South Korea or have some other ties. Their concern is genuine.
Actually I think my government’s policy of diplomatically isolate NK using economic sanctions that creat refugees in the first place, then pressure China to do something about it is, like your motivation, a little Machiavellian.
In this issue, I sympathize with the Chinese government(which is not my government)’s position.
Jesse,
I just want to let you know that even though I do not agree with some of your opinions on the interests and welfare of Chinese people, I do appreciate your good will (I have read your other posts). Thanks.
Also, I understand your frustration of Internet experience in China. I also believe that the firewall should largely not be there.
@rational
I certainly agree that Chinese government needs to be much more transparant…for the good of the people as well as the government itself.
When I was in China, people are getting what they need to know around the firewall anyway. There was really no need for it.
@ Wei,
Good point. Thanks.
Frankly, I feel this is a complicated topic. It’s part of how to run a country/government, hopefully for the benefits of the people. So I am really undecided what is the best way to address this problem. Probably there is just no perfect solution, and I will remain undecided forever. Meanwhile, you have to implement one policy or another, and any policy that is implemented has its shortcomings. So I guess it will be a dynamic process forever.
Thanks. I really appreciate your comments.
“Actually I think my government’s policy of diplomatically isolate NK using economic sanctions that creat refugees in the first place, then pressure China to do something about it is, like your motivation, a little Machiavellian.
In this issue, I sympathize with the Chinese government(which is not my government)’s position.”
If your government is the US government, then actually it is not correct that the US government pressures China regarding the status of North Korean refugees. HR 4011, passed by the US Congress in 2004, requires the US government to accept NK refugees, yet only a handful have come here. Both the US and South Korean governments have little interest in the plight of North Korean refugees. The US views the issue as a distraction from the six-party talks, and the formerly leftist South Korean government didn’t want to upset the North. Machiavellian indeed. Pressure on China regarding the treatment of North Korean refugees is coming mostly from South Korean and US NGOs and a few members of Congress.
The exodus of refugees began back during the severe famine of the mid-1990s, exacerbated not by US sanctions, which had been eased by Clinton, but by the loss of aid from the former Soviet Union. North Korea skillfully exploited the famine to shift spending, reducing its commercial imports of grain as food aid increased. Money formerly spent on imported grain was freed up to be spent on other things.
@knights -
You are embarrassing yourself and your country by the nitwit comments that you continue to make.
I have to wonder if you have ever stepped out of China or just get your news from Xinhua. You certainly have a very myopic view of the world.
Please take the advice one our your comrades gave you in another post.
@ Reeb,
hm, I am not in China, I am several countries and generations removed from China. My parents were born in Australia, then they moved to Canada, I was born in Canada, and now I am in U.S., and I am American Citizen! I am NOT a Chinese Citizen, how can I embarrass my people?????
The people that help sabotaging the torch are the ones that should be embarrassed!
I hope my message is posted.
I am NOT Chinese citizen, I am American citizen, so do I embarrass China and Chinese??????????????????????? I do not think so!!!!
Knights wrote:
“hm, I am not in China, I am several countries and generations removed from China. My parents were born in Australia, then they moved to Canada, I was born in Canada, and now I am in U.S., and I am American Citizen! I am NOT a Chinese Citizen, how can I embarrass my people????? “
“MY people”? Earlier on this thread, you wrote:
“The U.S., UK, France, Germany, and Canada grossly
violate the whole people (the 56 minorities and Han) living in China’s human rights by sabotaging our first chance to host the Olympics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Our freedom to express ourselves to the world is sabotaged, muted by CNN/BBC, how can they (countries mentioned above) fight for tibetan’s and Chinese freedom of expression in China when they take away 1.6 billion people’s freedom of expression worldwide??????????????????????????????????”
I’m confused by the phrase “our first chance to host the Olympics.” It is China’s first time as host, so by “our,” you must mean the Chinese people. Although you are not a Chinese citizen, you have clearly identified yourself as Chinese twice in the phrases “my people” and “our first chance.”
Regardless of your background and identity, I agree that your comments do not embarrass the Chinese people or the American people. One does embarrass one’s nationality. One embarrasses only oneself.
As for CNN and the BBC taking away people’s freedom of expression, that is rubbish regardless of what one thinks of the quality of reporting. Freedom of expression does NOT mean that media organizations must let public opinion dictate reporting. Freedom of expression means that media organizations may say whatever they like as long as they do not slander or libel anyone or any group. If that happens, the courts provide remedies to the aggrieved. Freedom of expression means that if the Chinese people or any other people don’t like CNN or the BBC, they can watch CCTV or some other news broadcaster instead. CCTV is available, uncensored, on some US cable providers. One can also view videos free online. I have. Unfettered access to the internet is an example of freedom of expression.
And I also happened up this quote on another recent thread:
“SO if this is true, I am LOL, we get punished just because we wave red flags and welcome the torch?????? If this is the case, what is democracy????????????????? I thought we can have different voices in democracy society?????? NO???!!!!!!!!!”
Spoken like a true American, er, US citizen. Not all Americans are US citizens and not all US citizens are Americans. The first denotes identity, the second legal status. 根据您的话, 您不是美国人, 而是有美国国籍的中国人. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
I. “Freedom of expression does NOT mean that media organizations must let public opinion dictate reporting. “
I agree with most part. However Freedom of Expression does NOT give one the right to publish Lying/Distorted information either. This would be in conflict with open mind and multiple voice democratic ideology.
II. “Freedom of expression means that media organizations may say whatever they like as long as they do not slander or libel anyone or any group. If that happens, the courts provide remedies to the aggrieved.”
I strongly agree with your selection of words such as Libel.
Libel definition: (A) written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression (B) 1) a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2): defamation of a person by written or representational means 3) the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures
CNN and Cafferty, and U.S. government propaganda
1) Accusing and blaming Chinese’s junk imports to allow American companies off the hook is an example of “a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression” to shape negative world opinion toward Chinese imports. American companies are too cheap to pay for better products and failing to inspect imports properly.
2) Blasphemously calling Chinese “Goons and Thugs” is a defamation of Chinese race.
3) By consistently siding with Lama and accusing China of human rights abuse handling of Lhasa riot is an example of “Seditious” act which is the incitement of resistance to or insurrection of tibetan Chinese against Chinese lawful authority.
4) Publication of distorted information such as intentionally cropping pictures, omitting information, and ignoring pro-China groups’ voice during Paris and SanFrancisco torch relays is an example of “treasonable, obscene writings or pictures”
5) I did not see any courts provide remedies to grieving Chinese over cafferty’s remarks.
III. “Freedom of expression means that if the Chinese people or any other people don’t like CNN or the BBC, they can watch CCTV or some other news broadcaster instead. CCTV is available, uncensored, on some US cable providers. One can also view videos free online. I have. Unfettered access to the internet is an example of freedom of expression.”
You can derive that Chinese in mainland do not have adequate access, therefore they are not well informed which leads to nationalism. The same opposite can be said about people living in democratic countries who have luxurious access to information, and yet majority choose to side with their governments. How do you explain that? It must be the democratic phenomenon.
“Spoken like a true American, er, US citizen. Not all Americans are US citizens and not all US citizens are Americans. The first denotes identity, the second legal status.”
Isn’t it obvious that I am Chinese Canadian American. I am an orphan of the world, because I am not accepted 100% by the Chinese, Canadians, and Americans.
Your quote has to distinguish what it means to be American vs. U.S. Citizen.
How do you define the term “American” by legal status (born in the U.S., naturalized in U.S.) or by majority race – Caucasian?
1) By Legal status, you are saying those who are either born in U.S. or naturalized in U.S. who are citizens may not necessarily be American?
2) Only Caucasians fit the “American” term, while minorities are not Americans even they meet condition #1, but U.S. citizens?
My conclusion from reading your quote is that anybody who has dissent voices are NOT Americans, but they might be U.S. citizens which is true to an extent. That convience me that the ultimate goal of democracy is to emphasize similar voices which is not much different from PRC.
GVO, do NOT be too CNN
I found another post that reads like this
“As you may be aware, the Olympic torch relay through major European cities has been successfully disrupted over the past week by demonstrators calling on Communist China to respect human rights and to get out of Tibet”:
So you are saying the tibet man successfully harrassed Jin Jing, and you are proud?
RE: libel and defamation:
The individual or group must be a legal entity. The Chinese people are not a legal entity. A specific Chinese person or Chinese organization could sue, but unless that individual or organization was mentioned by name, then there wouldn’t be a case. Ditto with criticizing imports. Unless Cafferty or some other commentator mentions a specific company, there is no legal plaintiff. The courts are very generous in interpreting the First Amendment. A website can compare Bush to a chimp and not be sued because public officials are not protected from ridicule. There has to be a specific person or organization and a specific allegation to qualify as libel or slander.
Bashing Chinese imports isn’t very nice, but it’s not libel or slander.
As for the Cafferty “goons and thugs” remark, I watched a video online. He used the qualifier “last fifty years,” so clearly he meant the CCP, not the Chinese people, who have been around for more than 4,000 years. Personally, I do not like this sort of name-calling period. I tuned out “chicom” Lou Dobbs a long time ago.
The charges of treason or sedition naturally apply to the US government and its jurisdiction. Chinese in China are free to plot the overthrow of the US government, and likewise, people in the US are free to agitate for an independent Tibet.
You didn’t see the courts providing remedies because no one sued. No one sued because there isn’t a legal case. I understand why you feel upset about US media coverage of China. I think the coverage is unbalanced also, but please understand that freedom of speech is interpreted generously out of the belief that democracy depends on people being free to criticize not only their own government and society but other goverments and societies, too.
“You can derive that Chinese in mainland do not have adequate access, therefore they are not well informed which leads to nationalism. The same opposite can be said about people living in democratic countries who have luxurious access to information, and yet majority choose to side with their governments. How do you explain that? It must be the democratic phenomenon.”
It must be the loyalty to the country phenomenon.
“How do you define the term “American” by legal status (born in the U.S., naturalized in U.S.) or by majority race – Caucasian?
1) By Legal status, you are saying those who are either born in U.S. or naturalized in U.S. who are citizens may not necessarily be American?
2) Only Caucasians fit the “American” term, while minorities are not Americans even they meet condition #1, but U.S. citizens? “
I define the term “American” by neither legal status or ethnicity. I define it by socialization and expression of identity. I have a friend who came to the US from Pakistan when she was eight. She retains Pakistani citizenship and a green card. She is not a US citizen, but she is American because she was educated in American schools and has lived in the US for almost her entire life. She interacts mostly with a mixed group of Americans and citizens of many other countries and does not spend most of her time with other Pakistanis. She behaves naturally like an American and would probably experience culture shock if she ever returned to Pakistan.
I know a Mexican family with mixed citizens and illegal immigrants. This is common. The two older children were born in Mexico and came here illegally with their parents when they were young. The two younger children were born here as US citizens. All of the children attended or currently attend American public schools, saying the Pledge of Allegiance, playing sports, and going on field trips with their classmates. The only real difference among the children is citizenship. Two are citizens living here legally. Two are not and would very much like a path to citizenship. All the children are American to me.
On the other hand, I know a 12-year-old Korean boy who was born in the US while his dad was getting a PhD. The family returned to Korea when he was three, and since then, he was raised in Korea and came back to the US to go to graduate school. He speaks excellent English, but there is nothing American about this child raised in a Korean family in Korea. A number of Korean and Chinese have come to the US on short-term visas to give birth. Wealthy Chinese used to escape the one-child policy, which is officially relaxed now. Koreans want their sons to be excused from mandatory military service.
I also know a 78-year-old Korean woman who immigrated here about 15 years ago to join her son and his family. She “passed” the citizenship and English exams in spite of speaking almost no English because the examiner helped her out. She renounced her Korean citizenship and took US citizenship not because she loves America and considers herself American but because she wanted access to public assistance benefits like her subsidized apartment for senior citizens.
<i.”My conclusion from reading your quote is that anybody who has dissent voices are NOT Americans, but they might be U.S. citizens which is true to an extent. That convience me that the ultimate goal of democracy is to emphasize similar voices which is not much different from PRC.”
Nope. See above. My distinction between US citizens and Americans has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or opinions. It has to do with identification with and love of one’s country and its people. Love doesn’t mean not being critical. Love of one’s country is like love among family. We argue and complain, but we celebrate good times together and help each other out in times of need.
Home is where the heart is.
@knights
I am not accepted 100% by the Chinese, Canadians, and Americans
There are millions of non-Caucasian people that live in America and are proud citizens. If you can’t fit in, that is your problem. Based on the non-sense that you write, its obvious that you have a chip on your shoulder about white people. I think a few more years of growing up will help you figure things out.
@paren
-> Home is where the heart is.
I am Chinese(or HAN) by race and American by nationality, and as far as culture wise, a mix of both Chinese and American; with American dominating to some degree. Where my heart is? US but with a sympathetic ear to China.
I do not see this as unamerican or being a “machine” for CCP as some of the people have labeled me here.
As far as democracy is concerned, yes, freedom of speech does not mean fair reporting; even though the Western Media seems to imply this. It is this implication that annoys me the most.
Democracy is great, but I think as China is opening up and starting to have some polical freedom, the Western powers need to confront the possiblity that a democratic China will rise but do not share the same value system as the western democratic nations if they are not careful now on issues such as Olympics and Tibet. I don’t think people will be ready for this.
Preludes of this has played in many places in the world in the past where democraticlly elected governments were put down to encourage more pro western governments; but of course, China is too big to do this.
We live in interesting times.
Paren
I really could not see your point of defending Jack Caffety through legal entity argument. It exposed your similar opinion towards Chinese or CCP whatever you call it. You should not ignore the RECEIVING side of the message by Jack, that majority of CHinese, no matter Chinese in China or Chinese overseas are upset about his remarks.
It is simply inappropriate to give such comment on TV.
@subjectivelistener:
You have misunderstood my views. I think that using words like “goons,” “thugs,” and “ChiCom” to describe the Chinese government is offensive. It is not, however, a legal offense. Unfortunately, political commentators in the US are prone to using inflammatory language whether they are calling conservatives “Repukes,” liberals “libtards,” or the Chinese government “Chicoms.