The real Olympic torch relay in Hong Kong has been criticized as a political decision as most of the non-athletic torch bearers were from the pro-China political clan. In the street, the Beijing supporters also out-numbered the protesters for human rights. However, in the virtual torch relay organized by local bloggers, the viewpoints are much more diverse.
The virtual torch relay, blogtorch08, was organized by More than one on April 8, dukedom of Aberdeen wrote:
如果香港要有火炬手，應該找些不是垃圾的運動員，應該找些平民百姓甚至弱勢社群，而不是給那些政治人物或富貴人家來曝光。
我是這樣的想法，你也可以有你的想法。我還是覺得，同一個世界，最好有更多不同的夢想。
This is what I think, you can have your own opinion. I still feel that one world is better to have many diverse dreams.
Up till now, there are more than 70 blog posts. Many of them criticized the arrangement of real torch relay. Ngsezhin pointed out that:
主辦大國以一幫錦衣衛護著那可憐的小火點到處跑。與其說是傳聖火，倒不如說是示威罷？其實這也是有跡可尋。傳聖火的起源不是古代奧運會，而是 1936 年柏林奧運會中希特拉用以宣傳納粹德國的公關手段！
Nikita also pointed out that the Beijing Olympics has been politicized since the very first day:
中共在申奧時聲稱會改善人權狀況，北京申奧委副主席劉敬民的話：「由北京舉辦奧運會將有助於中國的人權事業發展。」(出處)，將政治和體育混為一談的始作俑者是中共當局…
Stannum from Sidney talked about the history of Olympic torch relay protest in Australia to explain that there is nothing “Holy” about the torch. Tintin also pointed out that the Chinese translation has missed interpreted “Olympic flame” into “Olympic sacred flame”. Ah Tong followed the discussion and wondered who was the idiot to state the rules that “the Olympic sacred fire shall never be put out, not even for one second”? Singsit referred to ancient Greek mythology and pointed out that the sacred fire is originated from Prometheus’ action against the Gods, stealing fire from heaven:
假如當年普羅米和我們一般的昧著良心，不為正義去挑戰權力，不肯冒險作公民抗命的話，今天，世上還有火可以給舉起來嗎！？討厭那些人一手把人類最重要最寶貴的人權自由都沒收在手裡，然後涎著臉胡說：「聖火」不容侵犯。
Richey disagreed with the connection of Olympics and human rights issue and wanted to voice out his discontent towards the people who are using the Olympic as an excuse to force-feed something that is totally irrelevant to the Olympic game.
Daihung made fun of the Olympic torch relay protest and said that Torchsnatching has turned into an official competition in 2008 Beijing Olympics. He even made a poster for this event:
Edmund Hui on the other hand tried to figure out how to create an inextinguishable Olympic torch. Harry Potter’s magic is one of his suggestions.
Infilmity noticed that the official name of the 08 torch relay is called “harmonious trip” and he foresaw that news and information regarding the Olympics would be “harmonized”. Technologypark complained about the harmonized measure (deleting photos with pro-Tibet protesters) in mainland China BBS forum and exclaimed that “Let’s all die in Harmony”.
Rosery joined the “Human Right in Tibet” demonstration in London and she was happy that the torch would not past through Taiwan this time.
Heart of Kafka tried to explain the Chinese logic in the Torch relay protect campaign:
中國很辛苦的掙了個資格。現在錢我交了﹐場地我建了﹐你才和我玩杯葛? 還要搶火熄火? 西藏問題這麼多年你不出聲﹐現在就比CCTV更CCTV的說中國的不是?
不過也好﹐西方傳媒與那些連西藏也不知道在哪的示威份子達成了一個中國共產黨也不能做到的目標 - 團結海外華人的”愛國”心。
Well, western media and those protesters who don’t even know where Tibet is have help the CCP to achieve a goal – united overseas Chinese.
Shadow Cabinet pointed out that the fate of China is still caught in the victim imagination during the war time. It is unreasonable that a strong country would feel threaten by a non-existing country – Tibet.
Back to the real Olympic torch relay in Hong Kong today, Tsang Hin Chi (a pro-China businessman) and Leung Chun-ying (an Executive Council member) are two most controversial figures. Point South supported both for them because their existence is a proof on the political character of the Beijing Olympics.
Chonghead has a summary of today protest action with photos and video clips:
10:35am: Protest Banner action at Tsimshatsiu: One protest banner “Human right repression” was confiscated while another one on “Release Hu Jia” was hanged out at Chungking Mansion during the relay.
10:45am: Human rights and free Tibet protesters were surrounded and attacked by pro-China cheering team.
13:00pm: Students’ protest placards were confiscated by police.
16:00pm: A protester was surrounded by cover-up polices who confiscated his protest placards and threatened to arrest him.
Finally you admitt that
“.. . . . non-existing country – Tibet.”
When the twin towers went down in 9/11, the incident Bush could not locate Bin Ladin, so he found a scape (Saddam Hussien) and invaded Iraq. Bush drove america into the ground with five years of nonsense war. Yet he and his friends CNN kept americans in the dark so that they reelected him. I was surprised by the action taken by the world’s most powerful country (u.s.a) to invade a tiny helpless country for revenge!!!!!
Yesterday’s relay was evidence to the dangerously prevailing sentiments of patriotism and nationalism that has seized the city, with the arrival of the torch. But we have to ask ourselves: what else did the torch bring along with it?
Ignorance, bigotry and blind-allegiance to the establishment?
Because from the harassment that I’ve seen on news by pro-Beijing crowds (calling the pro-Human Rights crowd “traitors” and “dogs”), it certainly seemed so.
PS. Here’s the 2nd post of the newly relaunched larryau.com in response to the day’s events.
http://larryau.com/2008/05/02/orange-boxers/
I was surprised by the action taken by the world’s most powerful country (u.s.a) to invade a tiny helpless country for revenge
Iraq is not tiny or helpless. As a US citizen I was opposed to the invasion. However, the war in Iraq is irrelevant to the discussion of Tibet. Each is a separate issue. In Seoul, Chinese torch guardians attacked not only Free Tibet demonstrators but also protestors opposed to China’s policy of returning North Korean refugees in violation of the UN agreement it signed. Korea is not the West and advocates of humane treatment for North Korean refugees are not China bashers.
Paren:
The Iraq situation is especially relevant given that you had to clarify your position and make a distinction between you and your government. I don’t know about the anti-china protesters in Korea, but the “Pro-Tibet” and “Anti-China” people I saw in San Francisco were extremely provocative and often don’t make any distinction between the government and the people. It kind of makes you wonder what were the exact actions of all parties that led up to what we saw in Korea and Japan.
Kain
The Iraq situation is especially relevant given that you had to clarify your position and make a distinction between you and your government.
I clarified my position lest anyone presume that I rejected the Iraq comparison because I was a supporter. It is irrelevant because whether or not the US invasion of Iraq was just has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not China’s 1951 invasion of Tibet was just.
I don’t know about the anti-china protesters in Korea, but the “Pro-Tibet” and “Anti-China” people I saw in San Francisco were extremely provocative and often don’t make any distinction between the government and the people. It kind of makes you wonder what were the exact actions of all parties that led up to what we saw in Korea and Japan.
Koreans and Japanese are Koreans and Japanese. They are not Westerners although some demonstrations in both countries included foreign participants. It is illogical to presume that if Western demonstrators provoked Chinese reactions in Paris, London, and San Francisco, then the same thing must have happened in Seoul.
The photographic and video evidence on the internet strongly supports that nearly all of the violence in Seoul was carried out by Chinese demonstrators. Photos of Chinese students hittting and kicking demonstrators can be found on every major Chinese portal from Sina to 163.com to huanqiu to Tianya, punctuated by gleeful, nationalistic comments from netizens. Photos on Chinese websites show that the North Korean human rights demonstrators were across the street from Olympic Park and in no way attempted to disrupt the torch relay when a much larger crowd of Chinese students crossed the street to confront them, held back by a police line. Youtube videos show bottles and other garbage being hurled at the NK human rights demonstrators. I haven’t seen a single photo showing a Korean demonstrator actually harming a Chinese student.
Many Chinese make no distinction between Free Tibet supporters and North Korean human rights supporters, deriding both as 反华分子, or anti-Chinese. An overreaction to an overreaction: knee-jerk defensiveness against any criticism because some of it is irrational and unfair. I expect we’re going to hear the word 反华分子 more often as China’s global presence grows.
Paren:
Thank you for missing my point entirely.
The very fact that you have to clarify your position on Iraq as distinct from that of our government’s highlights the importance of not conflating people’s motive with that of their government’s: whether they are Chinese, American, or what not.
That aside, I do agree with you that Korean and Japanese are Koreans and Japanese rather than Occidentals. But people are people. They react when provoked regardless of race or nationality. What we don’t see on all those pictures and videos are what precipitated those events. We are of no doubt what happened, but why did they happen? That’s what the pictures and videos don’t show. So, we have to ask ourselves, when we are attributing a reason and motive for people’s actions, are they factual? Or were we just Ad libbing, filling in the blank as we go? Like because the Chinese were angry; Because Chinese government told them to, etc.
The same is applicable for the Lhasa riots. Why did it happen? I am sure anyone reading this post (including you) will offer a perspective on what lead up to them. I am sure I will get wildly different takes / interpretations on the events. But we have to ask ourselves, are these perspectives factual or were we just Ad libbing (just ever so slightly)? Think about.
Best
Kain
Passion without reason is just pure fanaticism.
“The very fact that you have to clarify your position on Iraq as distinct from that of our government’s highlights the importance of not conflating people’s motive with that of their government’s: whether they are Chinese, American, or what not. “
Thank you for clarifying your opinion, and I agree. That is exactly why Chinese netizens are wrong to mislabel North Korean human rights activists as “fanhuafenzi,” or China haters. Individuals can legitimately criticize the policies and actions of their own and other countries’ governments.
“That aside, I do agree with you that Korean and Japanese are Koreans and Japanese rather than Occidentals. But people are people. They react when provoked regardless of race or nationality. What we don’t see on all those pictures and videos are what precipitated those events. We are of no doubt what happened, but why did they happen? That’s what the pictures and videos don’t show. So, we have to ask ourselves, when we are attributing a reason and motive for people’s actions, are they factual? Or were we just Ad libbing, filling in the blank as we go? Like because the Chinese were angry; Because Chinese government told them to, etc.”
There is a wealth of photographic and video evidence online at Chinese, Korean, and English language websites, so we do know what happened before, during, and after certain events like the clash between the Chinese students and the North Korean human rights demonstrators. We know from video evidence and from photographic evidence from Chinese websites that the students were provoked by the mere sight of a demonstration criticizing China’s repatratiation of North Korean refugees. Kain, my friend, there are numerous photographs of the encounter with the bicyclist, yet none show him physically harming anyone. All of the photographic evidence of actual physical violence on Chinese websites shows Chinese students engaging in the violence. It is Chinese netizens who are ad-libbing by claiming that the North Korean human rights demonstrators brought the stone and tool to the rally to frame the Chinese students. It is Chinese netizens who are ad-libbing by claiming that the North Korean human rights demonstrator on the bicycle started the confrontation by hitting a student with his bike yet cannot provide any photographic proof of this.
“The same is applicable for the Lhasa riots. Why did it happen? I am sure anyone reading this post (including you) will offer a perspective on what lead up to them.”
I’m sure you’re wrong. Having lived a number of years in Korea, China, and Japan and having seen a large volume of photographic and video evidence from a variety of sources, I feel qualified to comment on the torch relay violence in Seoul. I have never been to Tibet, have never met a Tibetan, and have never commented in any forum about the causes of the riots.
Paren wrote:
> I haven’t seen a single photo showing a Korean demonstrator actually harming a Chinese student.
Here are some. I don’t think I can post or link images here, so here are the links.
An eyewitness account of the events surrounding the Chinese student’s kicking demonstrator picture:
http://zonaeuropa.com/200805a.brief.htm#004
The following youtube video link is from the above link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY3_tibj7Uo
More pictures in this thread (in Chinese):
http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content/worldlook/1/177131.shtml
The pincer and stone picture as proof of Chinese students’ violence. Who brought them to the street?
Make your own judgment.
I must say, good job!
Trying to be rational:
Thank you for the links, but I have seen every one of those images before.
Holding a bicycle over one’s head isn’t harming anyone. Please noticed that the bicyclist is surrounded by students. Please also notice that the second picture shows the bicyclist talking to a man with a flag-bearing Chinese student peering over some hedges. The other man has his hand on the bicycle handlebars in an apparent attempt to stop the bicycle. This photo was obviously taken before the kicking photos since the Korean man was escorted away by the police afterward. There is also a photo of the bicycle on the ground and the tattooed Chinese kicker and the Korean man struggling for it. Once again, holding a bicycle over one’s head is not hurting anyone with it. So many photos of the incident, some taken by Chinese students, yet not one showing the man actually hitting anyone as Chinese netizens have alleged.
As for the photos of the stone and the tool, scribbling all over the photos that the items were brought to the rally does not make it true. To the contrary, the one photo of the man in the PLA uniform was obviously taken during the rally, for a press microphone is visible in the picture.
In the NK human rights demonstration photos, the demonstrators and Chinese students are swinging flagpoles at each other. We know from photo evidence here
http://blog.dwnews.com/?p=36505
that the Chinese students crossed the road from Olympic Park to confront the demonstrators, who are labeled in yellow “zd” in one of the overhead shots. We can see the police trying to hold back the students from the NK demonstrators. Judging by subsequent photos, they were unsuccessful.
You’ve certainly made your own judgments. Can’t say you’ve done a good job.
@ Paren:
Anybody who violates the (local) law should be punished by (local) law. It is simple. I have said it before. I just wish the execution of the law is fair (including, without regard to whether you are Pro-China or Pro-Tibet or Pro-whatever). And I wish I knew all/more facts.
I also want to say that, overall, the Chinese students/supporters could have done a better job, for the interests of China. They are not impeccable. That aside…
> Thank you for the links, but I have seen every one of those images before.
>
> Holding a bicycle over one’s head isn’t harming anyone. Please noticed that the bicyclist is surrounded by students. Please also notice that the second picture shows the bicyclist talking to a man with a flag-bearing Chinese student peering over some hedges. The other man has his hand on the bicycle handlebars in an apparent attempt to stop the bicycle. This photo was obviously taken before the kicking photos since the Korean man was escorted away by the police afterward. There is also a photo of the bicycle on the ground and the tattooed Chinese kicker and the Korean man struggling for it. Once again, holding a bicycle over one’s head is not hurting anyone with it. So many photos of the incident, some taken by Chinese students, yet not one showing the man actually hitting anyone as Chinese netizens have alleged.
It is just difficult for me to view this man’s holding a bicycle as a sign of benevolence and innocence. And you have agreed that this photo was taken before the kicking photo.
I hope you did not miss the picture showing a bleeding Chinese supporter, probably unrelated to the kicking photo. I just tend to believe that this was not done by some Chinese supporters to frame the Pro-Tibet or NK protesters.
> As for the photos of the stone and the tool, scribbling all over the photos that the items were brought to the rally does not make it true.
I have nothing more to say about this.
> To the contrary, the one photo of the man in the PLA uniform was obviously taken during the rally, for a press microphone is visible in the picture.
Sorry, I failed to follow your logic. Your point is…?
> In the NK human rights demonstration photos, the demonstrators and Chinese students are swinging flagpoles at each other. We know from photo evidence here
>
> http://blog.dwnews.com/?p=36505
>
> that the Chinese students crossed the road from Olympic Park to confront the demonstrators, who are labeled in yellow “zd” in one of the overhead shots. We can see the police trying to hold back the students from the NK demonstrators. Judging by subsequent photos, they were unsuccessful.
This is pretty bad. It was wrong for the Chinese students/supporters to break the police line. (stupid, too young, too emotional, but) No excuse.
> You’ve certainly made your own judgments. Can’t say you’ve done a good job.
I did make my own judgments. And you did too. And feel free to make your own judgment on what I did.
Paren:
One of thing that was never quite answered among all the “facts” is why did it happen.
I am quite curious to see what do you think why things happened the way they did. Let me know.
Best
Kain
I might have misread Paren’s last post regarding which picture s/he was talking about. If so, I apologize.
To me, the central question is: Was the picture of the man holding the bicycle over his head taken before the kicking picture, or after? Everybody can make his own judgment using the info available in this thread.
“Anybody who violates the (local) law should be punished by (local) law.”
So far only one Chinese student was arrested and released on his own recognizance. He’s the fellow delivering a flying kick to the bicylist. The police had little trouble tracking him down since he and his friends wore t-shirts identifying the name of their student organization. Four more are expected to be arrested out of the tens of thousands of students and overseas Chinese who lined the streets during the torch relay, so there’s hardly a witchhunt going on.
“It is just difficult for me to view this man’s holding a bicycle as a sign of benevolence and innocence. And you have agreed that this photo was taken before the kicking photo.”
He is surrounded by protestors. It is unlikely that a lone protestor would initiate a physical confrontation with a large group of opposing protestors. It is more likely that a lone protestor would be defending himself.
“I hope you did not miss the picture showing a bleeding Chinese supporter, probably unrelated to the kicking photo. I just tend to believe that this was not done by some Chinese supporters to frame the Pro-Tibet or NK protesters.”
He appears not to be present in any of the bicycle photos. He is definitely not the man facing the bicyclist holding the bicycle over his head. All not look same. Maybe his head got whacked during the flag pole fight.
“I have nothing more to say about this.”
I respect commenters who concede a point.
“Sorry, I failed to follow your logic. Your point is…?”
My point is that I don’t understand why that photo is plastered all over the internet as some kind of proof that the pro-NK refugee activists brought the tool to the demonstration and that it was not thrown at them by a Chinese student.
“This is pretty bad. It was wrong for the Chinese students/supporters to break the police line. (stupid, too young, too emotional, but) No excuse.”
I respect you for acknowledging that. Chinese young people are no better or worse than young people elsewhere. Probably the only Asian country that has not experienced a violent demonstration in the last thirty years is North Korea, where nearly all violence is carried out by the state.
I actually feel sorry to see the international torch relay go sour. I know my Chinese friends are excited about the Olympics coming to China, and I understand why they are upset about the protests.
I also hope Chinese people can understand that in Korea, as in China, a gesture of remorse goes a long way. The first Chinese student arrested was released partly because he apologized for his behavior. Even if he doesn’t go to jail (likely that he won’t) or get deported (likely that he will), he could never return to complete his studies at the Korean university he was attending.
Cheers.
“One of thing that was never quite answered among all the “facts” is why did it happen.”
Using the word “facts” in parentheses suggests doubt. What “facts” are you uncertain of?
@Kain,
What “facts” do you doubt?
Paren:
I don’t doubt the “facts”. I myself said in an earlier post (#6), “We are of no doubt what happened…” There are plenty of photographs and videos circulating around. You yourself provided plenty of links to them.
It is just that some of the things that surround those photographs and videos quite got answered. That is, why did things happened the way they did?
And I asked about your take on what gave rise to the things we see in those photographs and videos (#11). I never really did get an answer from you.
If you have one, let me know.
Best
Kain
Paren:
Erratum on paragraph #2 for post 16.
“It is just that some of the things that surround those photographs and videos quite got answered.”
Correction:
“It is just that some of the things that surround those photographs and videos NEVER quite got answered.”
Anyhow, let me know if you have an answer as to why things happen the way they did.
Best
Kain
@ Paren,
My discussion is based on this eyewitness account:
http://zonaeuropa.com/200805a.brief.htm#004
(That page has link to the source in Chinese, of the following English translation)
”
Here is the eyewitness account from a Chinese living in South Korea. The Korean person with the bicycle was not a passerby. He was a protestor. He went into the plaza where thousands of Chinese were assembled and make protests. The Chinese students saw hm and surrounded him to chant “Go China!” Some students got excited and were about to take more radical action. So I stopped them immediately and I spoke to this protestor in Korean: “If you want to protest, you ought to try to understand China first.” He replied: “Of course, I understand China! I know all about it!” I noticed that he used irreverent language in addressing me (note: there are two forms of speaking in Korean — reverently and irreverently). Since he replied in this manner, I had nothing more to say. At that moment, he began to chant: “Free Tibet!” Upon hearing this, a Chinese student kicked him from behind. The protestor picked up his bicycle and starting swinging it to hit people. Many of the Chinese students dodged the bicycle, and so did I. But one person was hit in the head and bled. Another Chinese student got mad and kicked the protestor. This was the photo that made all the front pages in the Korean media. But the Korean media did not mention a single word about what happened before that moment. Some media even said that the Chinese were assaulting pedestrians.
”
You know, when I read “Upon hearing this, a Chinese student kicked him from behind,” I felt very uneasy. Because of this, my *personal* opinion is that it was wrong for that Chinese student to kick the protester, which was, according to that account, the first physical attack. For this, *personally* I think the Chinese students should bear the majority of the blame for this unfortunate event, if that account is accurate.
This account is reasonable to me. So my understanding is:
(1) Man shouted “Free Tibet”;
–> (2) A Chinese student kicked him from behind (conflict escalated, and see my earlier comments);
–> (3) Man raised his bicycle to use it as a tool to fight back (another escalation);
–> (4) Another Chinese fly-kicked the man (yet another escalation, the famous picture).
You said “It is more likely that a lone protestor would be defending himself.” The above account said “The protestor picked up his bicycle and starting swinging it to hit people. Many of the Chinese students dodged the bicycle, and so did I. But one person was hit in the head and bled.” My *personal* interpretation is that the man over-reacted a bit (conflict escalation). Swinging something like the bicycle shown in the picture is quite menacing. So came yet another conflict escalation, a Chinese student fly-kicked the man, and hence the famous picture.
The kicking picture looks very ugly. It was natural for me to look for a more complete description of what happened. Reporting that picture only, perhaps even with some misleading info, only serves the purposes of a small group of people, and does harm to the majority of the people in the world.
Anyway, so it looks like that you and I still disagree on how to look at this event.
> “I have nothing more to say about this.”
>
> I respect commenters who concede a point.
Sorry for not making myself clear. I meant I insisted on my original stand.
> My point is that I don’t understand why that photo is plastered all over the internet as some kind of proof that the pro-NK refugee activists brought the tool to the demonstration and that it was not thrown at them by a Chinese student.
I never said that the tools were not used by any Chinese students to throw at any Pro-NK or Pro-Tibet protesters, because I do not know.
To me, the most important questions are:
Why were the pincer and the stone in the street in the first place? What was the intention of the people who brought them in?
The next important questions are:
What did the media and netizens do to the pincer and stone (we have seen this in the media and on the Internet, haven’t we)? Fair use for the purpose of objectively informing people of what happened, or selective reporting to serve the purposes of a certain group of people? In reality, what effects were achieved?
This question is of course also important:
How were these tools actually utilized in the street? We have some pictures of how some people used the pincer and stone during the event. I have not seen any pictures showing who used the pincer or the stone to attack whom. Ok, show me a picture of a Chinese supporter using the pincer/stone to attack the protesters, and I will take that into consideration too.
We only have the available pictures for our use in our attempt to find out what happened during the event.
For the pictures under discussion, to me, annotating does not reduce the credibility of the pictures. Perhaps you were concerned about the smallness of some images as a result of cramming too many pictures into one. I was/am too. But there are some larger resolution pictures later on in that thread. I think the annotation did help me understand the situation.
Obviously, on this topic we still disagree, wildly.
BTW, when I do not respond to certain comments, it means one of the following two cases: (1) I do not agree, but it is not worth responding/ not worth my time. (2) I agree, but I do not think I have more substance to contribute to the discussion. I just want to let you know that I agree with and respect some of your comments, although I did not specifically singled them out.
@Trying to be rational:
The problem with the eyewitness account is that it’s not supported by photographic evidence. There was more than one person photographing the encounter yet not one photo of the man swinging the bicycle, people ducking, or anyone getting hit. If, indeed, a Chinese student kicked the man first and the man picked up the bicycle, then he was defending himself against a hostile crowd. Mature adults don’t kick someone for saying something they don’t like. In Korea, it is not unusual for middle-aged people to speak to younger people in informal language, or banmal. I was spoken to in banmal on many occasions, sometimes in an angry or insulting manner, and I never kicked anybody.
“Sorry for not making myself clear. I meant I insisted on my original stand.”
It’s always good to stand by your beliefs even when evidence doesn’t support it.
“I never said that the tools were not used by any Chinese students to throw at any Pro-NK or Pro-Tibet protesters, because I do not know.”
You linked to the photographs as evidence, and that allegation is written on the photographs and accompanying text.
Kain wrote:
“Anyhow, let me know if you have an answer as to why things happen the way they did.”
It’s best not to ad lib.
@ Paren:
Yes, too bad the Chinese students do not have photos to defend themselves. You know what, or you may already know, the “journalists” and “protesters” were more professional than the young Chinese students in grasping every opportunity to take pictures of things that interest them the most. And yes, I believe this is one aspect of the whole thing. As for the Chinese students around the man, I think I would try to dodge the bicycle to avoid being hurt before I can think about taking pictures — that takes a professional to do it. And yes, that account claimed somebody got hurt by the bicycle, but unfortunately, we have not seen supporting pictures yet, bad for that guy who got hurt, and bad for the Chinese students. That account is the only account I know of regarding the kicking picture (true of false is subject to debate). Any other accounts attempting to give a fair and balance description of what happened? Is it because that picture really is everything and there is nothing else to tell, or some people just do not want to talk about what happened just before that kicking picture? But you insist on photos, and it seems that you are unwilling to discuss any further beyond photos, understood. Meanwhile, I make my own judgments about what is reasonable in the information presented to me.
> “I never said that the tools were not used by any Chinese students to throw at any Pro-NK or Pro-Tibet protesters, because I do not know.”
>
> You linked to the photographs as evidence, and that allegation is written on the photographs and accompanying text.
I did not expect that you interpreted my writing this way. I am sorry for either my writing or your comprehension. I am still investigating what parts of those photographs and stories as annotated can be trusted, and what parts cannot.
Now, show me a picture showing Chinese students using that pincer or that stone to attack anybody. Isn’t this the people who showed the pincer-stone picture to the whole world trying to convey to the world?
Yeah, before I see any picture proving that Chinese students brought in the pincer and the stone, or showing Chinese students using the pincer or stone to attack anybody, I declare the whole pincer-stone play as a dirty despicable shameless frame-up. We want photos, don’t we?
Or at least please show me just one picture with the tool or the stone in the Chinese students’ hands!
“Upon hearing this, a Chinese student kicked him from behind,”
I’d say that the key word is ‘behind’. This tells me that the account is possibly true. This is the pattern of mob behaviour. Especially in China. Seen, it, been in it. Everyone infront of you screams and yells…and then someone whacks you feebly from behind.
I’d say that the key word is ‘behind’.
When some one has a bicycle attacking you, you have to kick them from behind. It’s simple logic self defense!
Paren:
Thanks you for saying, “It’s best not to ad lib.”
Then you have ask yourself what’s the purpose of toting those photographs and videos without any attempts to understand the circumstances, both psychological and situational factors, that lead up to what we see in those pictures and videos.
If you think you had made attempts to understand what precipitated everything, please, by all means, share some of your insights with us.
Images and videos, although extremely compelling, they don’t tell the whole story. They have to be qualified by accounts from many different sources, including first hand / eyewitness accounts, that will shed light on what happen before and what happened afterwards. Even then, we have to verify the credibility of all those accounts.
To tote photographs and videos as the singular and absolute proof is fallacious. It creates an environment for the audience to lean toward their predispositions and fill in their own narratives; to Ad lib when information is lacking. Yeah, we all saw this happening on both sides.
So, help us understand what your perspective on the reasons and motivations behind the actions of the people we see in those pictures and video. Hopefully by the end of the day, we can all get a better understanding of what happened and why.
Let me know, okay.
Best
Kain
Here’s something comments from Kadfly you might find interesting for the current circumstance.
http://chineseinvancouver.blogspot.com/2008/03/mainstream-media-bias-against-china-is.html
“Yes, too bad the Chinese students do not have photos to defend themselves. You know what, or you may already know, the “journalists” and “protesters” were more professional than the young Chinese students in grasping every opportunity to take pictures of things that interest them the most. And yes, I believe this is one aspect of the whole thing. “
Thanks for the laugh. These students didn’t just show up in Seoul. They had organized and planned carefully, coming in on chartered buses, wearing specially made t-shirts identifying their student groups, and wavings tens of thousands of flags. There are plenty of photos taken by Chinese students available on the web, including the one of the man holding up the bike. Some Chinese have been savvy enough to launch a defense campaign, posting photos and commentary that has spread around the internet. Some English-speaking Chinese have compiled those images into videos posted on Youtube, grasping every opportunity to express their views using available media.
@ Paren:
> Thanks for the laugh. These students didn’t just show up in Seoul. They had organized and planned carefully, coming in on chartered buses, wearing specially made t-shirts identifying their student groups, and wavings tens of thousands of flags. There are plenty of photos taken by Chinese students available on the web, including the one of the man holding up the bike. Some Chinese have been savvy enough to launch a defense campaign, posting photos and commentary that has spread around the internet. Some English-speaking Chinese have compiled those images into videos posted on Youtube, grasping every opportunity to express their views using available media.
I said the “journalists” and “protesters” are professional at doing including photographing what interests them the most. I am not denying any photos. Let me now add that the Chinese students are also trying to do their best at what interests them the most. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that overall the Chinese defense campaign is a complete failure.
I said: show people all the available info (pictures and eyewitness accounts) and let people make their own judgment. It appears to me that your opinions is that the lack of a picture *clearly* showing the man was swinging his bicycle means that he did not swing his bicycle. Understood, you are entitled to your opinion. (My opinion is I do not know if he swung the bicycle or not. Like I said before, what matters more is perhaps how the Chinese students around him interpreted his action.)
In any case, glad my writing made you laugh, at least good for your health.
@Trying to be rational:
Even if the man swung his bike, according to the account of the Chinese student, he was first kicked from behind by another student. Thus, he would have been acting in self-defense.
@Kain:
The links to photos and videos were provided as support for claims made in my posts. Supporting one’s claims with evidence is not being “fallacious.” In no less than three posts, you have made mention of motives and possible events preceding and following the encounter. It seems that you have some ideas yourself, so don’t hold back. Share with us your perspectives on the event in question.
In general I do not agree with younger people kicking older for no reason. However, it’s okay to kick your enemies when they try to harm your country. American’s kick the hell out of Iraqis’ behinds with real weapons.
btw It’s great Tai-Kwando practice for the Chinese students. Bravo!
I find it interesting that people care so much about Chinese students kicking Korean man. I do not find any defense that non-Chinese rush to defend Jin Jing, the handicap girl who was shoved and attacked by a man twice her size. The whole concept of you attacking Chinese students vs. attacking the man who attacked Jin Jing is biased. All I can say to you is “Do NOT be too CNN” You have a pre-determined prejudice against Chinese, and you secretly laugh at videos attacking even Handicap girl. Then you sweep it under the carpet and start attacking Chinese students.
You have a pre-determined prejudice against Chinese, and you secretly laugh at videos attacking even Handicap girl.
Did you see that in your crystal ball? You’ll be comforted to know that I find objectionable any attempts to disrupt the torch relay, including the attempt to wrestle the torch from Jin Jing. Protestors exercising free speech and expression from the sidelines is fine. Running out and trying to grab the torch is not.
As for cheering on the violence of the Chinese students, it is unfortunate that you seem not to distinguish violent from non-violent protest. And frankly I am at a loss to understand how the US invading and occupying Iraq provides justification for Chinese students kicking Korean protestors.